Schools Cup 2010

[Instonian]

Game of the weekend: RBAI vs Belvedere. both teams light a few players should be good encounter! also good luck to the ulster lads playing in dublin tomorrow for the 19s

[ColinM]

Interesting work cjp. What strikes me about that is that there doesn't appear to have been any players picked up by the clubs that didn't attend the rugby playing schools. When I was at school the binmen in particular had a strong team of non schools players.



Ps Bryn went to sullivan afaik

[Rooster]

Ps Bryn went to sullivan afaik

nope BGS

Presumably his brother Jan did as well then

[DHK]

Ps Bryn went to sullivan afaik

nope BGS

Presumably his brother Jan did as well then

Yeah they both went to Bangor Grammar

[cables]

I dodged this one earlier as I knew how difficult it would be for me to complete the list I already had started some time before.

Also, as was posted by another previously, it would be very difficult to detect all Ulster educated players who became professional elsewhere. I know Phil Murphy was one but how many do I just not have a clue about.

Restricting it ONLY to those who have played for Ulster or been on the close fringe of doing so since 1995, you are looking at 182 players (including the Academy this year) or more.

I reckon 54 of those were educated 'elsewhere'. I have (at least) probable schools for 92 locals but I am not even close to identification of the schools for the remaining 36.

Always assuming my list of 182 is complete.

BTW, so far I have 22 'probable' schools.

[Rooster]

Interesting to see the 182 cables, could make a very long post though if we were all to try and fill in the schools for you

[playingadvantage]

How did the game of the weekend go Instonian?

[mikerob]

In the case of Ferris, I thought he played very little rugby at school and wasn't picked up at all in the Ulster schools system but was spotted playing for Portadown (although I suppose the rugby he played at school did at least expose him to the sport)

I don't know anything about Ulster schools rugby these days, but what are the chances of players from "non-traditional" schools breaking through to professional ranks? Do they not get the quality of coaching at these schools compared to traditional schools? Are players from these schools not really considered by selectors? One way of increasing the probability of good players coming through is obviously to increase the size of the "funnel"...

[fuzzylogic]

by mikerob on Mon Nov 30, 2009 9:45 am

I don't know anything about Ulster schools rugby these days, but what are the chances of players from "non-traditional" schools breaking through to professional ranks? Do they not get the quality of coaching at these schools compared to traditional schools? Are players from these schools not really considered by selectors? One way of increasing the probability of good players coming through is obviously to increase the size of the "funnel"...

Its a bit of a farce really, its more about 1.what school you go to and 2. who you know rather than how good of a player you are.

1.Obviously in recent years there are a few standout splayers, Tommy Seymore and Niall O'Connor are to who have come from smaller rugby playing schools but mainly its the guys from the big schools because there is a perception that they are better than their couterparts and they fact that they play bigger games all year. Larne Grammar/Ballyclare High etc dont play the big southern or English schools like Colstons who seem to have a rolling conveyor belt of future internationals. the way Methody and Campbell do. Also its going to be easier putting a team of 15 together in such a small amount of time from a mixture of 3 or 4 schhols than it is to use guys from 10 different schools expecailly when your combinations all know each other, the hooker and jumpers, the 9 and 10 etc . . .

2. Who you know is all important, Davy Wells reccomending his out half to the Ulster schools selectors is going to carry a lot more weight than a Dalriada History teacher whos coaching his first rugby team reccmonding his out half. Your school coach being involved in Ulster Schools is also a big factor, I remember in my U6th year playing against Friends and their 1st XV coach/referee was the Schools U19s coach and all of a sudden they had 3 or 4 guys in the training squads who wernt as good as other guys id played against.

[cables]

Using the information gathered on the "collective challenge" thread this is roughly where we are at.

Numbers in brackets are for the current academy AND ARE included in the totals.

There are queries against some and a few are disputed by different people but it will not be very far wrong.

The 23 unknowns have the potential to influence the 'table', perhaps considerably, when known. The current academy (18) had a considerably influence on the 'table' this year as can be readily seen.

There are 24 Schools on the list. Around 102 Schools (Post Primary but excluding Regional Colleges) are affiliated to UB.

MCB 9 (4)
RBAI 9
Bangor Grammar 7
RSA 7 (2)
Ballymena Academy 6
Belfast High School 6
CAI 6 (3)
CCB 6 (2)
Wallace HS 6 (1)
Banbridge Academy 5 (4)
Belfast Royal Academy 5
Portadown College 5
Royal School Dungannon 5
Ballyclare High School 2
Foyle and Londonderry College/St. Columb's College 2 (1)
Friends 2
Sullivan 2
Dalriada 1
Down High 1 (1)
Limavady GS 1
Rainey Endowed 1
Regent House 1
St. McCartans, Monaghan 1
Wellington College 1
Total (Ulster Schools) 97

Elsewhere 63
Unknown 23

Overall Total 183

Since 1990 (5 years before the start of professionalism to allow some feed-through) these schools were in the Schools Cup Final at least once.
The schools are listed in the same order as the player schools listed above. These schools provided 63 of the 97 players whose schools have been 'identified' - neglecting errors and disputes in the gathering process. Remember, please - it is a rough tool rather than a precise tool.

MCB
RBAI
Bangor Grammar
RSA
Ballymena Academy
CAI
CCB
Wallace HS
Belfast Royal Academy
Dalriada
Regent House

[cjp]

In the case of Ferris, I thought he played very little rugby at school and wasn't picked up at all in the Ulster schools system but was spotted playing for Portadown (although I suppose the rugby he played at school did at least expose him to the sport

He played for the school from 1st year I think and he played a bit of club rugby at Lisburn at Under 13 level. He played for the school 1st XV in 5th year and I would presume he had been identified into regional training squads by that age. When he didn't go back to school he joined Portadown and went straight into the Ulster Youth team as far as I am aware and the rest as they say is history.

[playingadvantage]

fuzzylogic writes " Who you know is all important, Davy Wells reccomending his out half to the Ulster schools selectors is going to carry a lot more weight than a Dalriada History teacher whos coaching his first rugby team reccmonding his out half." The irony is Davy Wells doesn't recommend anyone. He'd love it if Ulster didn't select anyone from MCB.

Looks like we will have to buy tomorrows News Letter Instonian to find out............

[fuzzylogic]

by playingadvantage on Mon Nov 30, 2009 11:37 pm

The irony is Davy Wells doesn't recommend anyone. He'd love it if Ulster didn't select anyone from MCB.

I didnt say he did, he was just the first coach with a big name at schools level that came to mind!

[playingadvantage]

And I wasn't having a go at you in any way. Just a comment to show how confusing the whole system is. I think they are trying to start to identify players earlier by the RDS U17 squad system although as I understand it not everyone including MCB nominate players for those squads.

[AndyB]

He'd love it if Ulster didn't select anyone from MCB.

And therein lies the problem with schools rugby.

Seeing as Davy Wells coaches the first formers I'd be very surprised if he recommended any of his players for the Ulster squad.