UR & the case of the invisible centre

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BaggyTrousers
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UR & the case of the invisible centre

Post by BaggyTrousers »

Has Darren Cave been sacked?

Are Ulster just following the fine example of the southern press and simply not mentioning him at all, most especially when mention of a white or green 13 jumper is involved.

Below is a piece from the UR website, the bit in red and particularly the underlined bit, makes me wonder is Darren Cave being excluded in some sinister way. Given he was left out of a match-day squad for the first time in living memory when fit and available, this is at the very best unbelievably clumsy, at worst................. well you probably don't need me to spell out "calculated insult".

Pretty clear we won't be playing our best outside centre this week.
There can be few more difficult starts to life as a Head Coach than matches against Glasgow, Leicester Tigers and Toulon.

With a win over Glasgow already secured, new Ulster Head Coach, Neil Doak, is now concentrating on the second of those huge matches, against Leicester in the European Rugby Champions Cup, on Saturday evening:

“I was pleased with the result against Glasgow and the platform that we had. To keep them from scoring a try was an exceptional performance,” says Doak.

“I have had a brief look at Leicester. The won again (the beat Harlequins 22 – 16 at Welford Road on Friday night) and they did so in difficult conditions. They are obviously building as we are. Hopefully it will be a good hit out on Saturday.”

As Head Coach, the responsibility of selecting a team now falls on his shoulders and he has some big selection challenges ahead of Saturday’s match:

Doak says: “We have quality across the board but we have to manage the squad. We have big games and there are going to be injuries. We have to adapt and there will be a few selection headaches no doubt.”

Two of those selection questions come in the backline where Stuart McCloskey has been exceptional and Ian Humphreys was in superb form on Saturday night. However, with Stuart Olding and Luke Marshall in the squad and Paddy Jackson back in the selection mix, neither player’s place is assured:

“The big European games are physical. Stuart (McCloskey) has come in and has done a great job for us. He is physical in his carries and defensively he can get in top of players. He’s not over-awed by the atmosphere or the situation. Ian (Humphreys) is a quality player. He is a quality goal kicker – it’s great to have him back. He can dictate the tempo of the game really well and it is good to have Paddy Jackson and Ian competing for that ten jersey.”

Half a dozen quality players competing for two starting positions? Not a bad problem to have in your first week in charge
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Eggs
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Re: UR & the case of the invisible centre

Post by Eggs »

Think you are reading too much into this. They were simply emphasising the depth and competition at 12, and perhaps slightly preparing people for the possibility that Jacko may be benching.


That said, I really want to see Cave back in...
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Re: UR & the case of the invisible centre

Post by Loki »

it's a poor piece of writing by any stretch, but if you look at what the clauses are trying to do Cave wouldn't be mentioned because 13 isn't being discussed. the inference being that McCloskey, as the current holder of the 12, is referent to that position. therefore McCloskey, Olding and SkyMarshall are the 3 in contest for the 12.

it really falls down logically in the next stage. Again, iHumph started at the weekend and is the referent to the 10 position. PJ is available and the automatic challenger. to state that you have half a dozen players challenging for two places only makes sense logically if Olding is cloned, as it's tacitly implied he's a challenger with Humph and Jacko for the 10. unless he really is a phenomenon he can't play 10 and 12 so we infact have 5 players for 2 positions*, neither of which Cave would expect to play.

I think you're seeing things where they're not there Baggy. Although I do believe, and am saddened by the thought, that Cave has at the highest level been deemed surplus to requirements and will eventually be cut to allow our younger centres to break through. his ability and experience ahead of Payne would be of great assistance to both the youngers and Ulster, and I think it's a poor decision to cut an extremely talented player and a lovely fella to boot.

(before any funny ballix points out the many syntactic and grammatic errors in my own fair diction, I don't get paid for this mince and naturally afford it the care it deserves :thumright: )

*( if you really wanted to, you could get a paper on the grammar equivalent of the uncertainty principle here...Olding cannot not be 12 until he is picked at 10, and he cannot not be 10 unless he is picked at 12, and he can remain either if picked at 22...solve for x)
Last edited by Loki on Mon Oct 13, 2014 9:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: UR & the case of the invisible centre

Post by BaggyTrousers »

Who played 12 in our Pro12 semi-final last season?
Who played 12 in Ireland's last international?

You guys quite certain I'm making a mountain out of a molehill?
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Re: UR & the case of the invisible centre

Post by OneMore »

BaggyTrousers wrote:Who played 12 in our Pro12 semi-final last season?
Who played 12 in Ireland's last international?

You guys quite certain I'm making a mountain out of a molehill?
If this article is taken in isolation, I'd say yes, mountain out of a molehill.

Given everything else that's gone on, probably still so, but I'm less certain.
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Re: UR & the case of the invisible centre

Post by Meg The Lab »

I know I don't know a lot, in fact i don't quite know what I don't know, yet I do know what I do know and it is this:
When in Cardiff for the HEC final earlier this year I had a conversation with a certain woman quite close to the said Mr. Cave. She was telling me that Darren's contract is up at the end of this current season. Just prior to our conversation he had been offered an extension by Dr. D. Humphreys which he turned down due to the uncertainty of his position in the starting line up for this new campaign.
It was her opinion, which she reached as a result of information given to her by Darren, that Payne was going to be the main man for the 13 slot, very much so at his own request and encouraged by the chaps from IRFU and at that time the 12 slot would be fought out between Olding and Marshall. In addition to this we now have McCloskey and Ludick who can well fit into either position.
Based on that, and I could be completely wrong, this could well be Darren's last season with Ulster unless he is happy to continue to take the role of a regular sub / squad member.
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Re: UR & the case of the invisible centre

Post by Nightsoil »

This may be the mountain, this may be the molehill. Not gonna lie, I'd have happily bet Baggy a fair amount that Cave would be 13 for this game... and now I'm not so sure. But that could easily be nothing. Doak responds to a few questions, they write it all up on the site, that isn't necessarily Doak's thoughts.

I'd rather wait until we see the team sheet before going berserk.
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Re: UR & the case of the invisible centre

Post by waggonsroll »

When I was re-watching the match last night it was said during the commentary that Darren was injured but if that was the case I would have expected the Ulster squad announcement to have included the well worn phrase "not considered due to injury".
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Re: UR & the case of the invisible centre

Post by Rooster »

waggonsroll wrote:When I was re-watching the match last night it was said during the commentary that Darren was injured but if that was the case I would have expected the Ulster squad announcement to have included the well worn phrase "not considered due to injury".
:roll: he was so injured he warmed up with the team as 24th man
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Re: UR & the case of the invisible centre

Post by Russ »

Will be a sad day in Irish rugby if this is the case
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Re: UR & the case of the invisible centre

Post by Eggs »

Im afraid to say that Darren leaving at the end of the season seems to be almost certain, and he would be the one man that I would hold no ill feeling towards for leaving, he is being left no choice. Or alternatively maybe he has stated that he will not renew his contract, and therefore for the sake of the future he is not being used, instead trying to develop Payne who will be the only real option in a years time. The reality is that we don't know.

If (massive if, because Im not saying I believe it), Darren was to have turned down further contracts, I could to an extent understand more Ulsters desire to give Payne a real run at 13, because actually, we don't have a proven 13 behind him. The alternatives might be moving Luke or Olding,or maybe McCloskey, but none of those would necessarily be a better option than Payne. Ludik on a two year contract would not necessarily provide the right solution, and certainly given the retirement of BoD there is no way that D4 will be happy with Ulster primarily using a NIQ 13

I know nothing about this, Im just saying that there may be more to this than simply pushing Darren out.
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Re: UR & the case of the invisible centre

Post by Spiffsson »

I agree with Baggy that there is something strange in the way that Cave is getting little game time and seems to have been edged out of things. He is a proven performer and our best 13. If he does not get a run in the next couple of matches, I reckon the writing is on the wall and he should just move. Plenty of clubs would be glad to have him in the starting lineup. The whole business steams my piiss.
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Re: UR & the case of the invisible centre

Post by Hans Indaruck »

Montpellier - to tie up with his old buddy Tim O'Shea??!! :stir:
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Re: UR & the case of the invisible centre

Post by BaggyTrousers »

Nightsoil wrote:This may be the mountain, this may be the molehill. Not gonna lie, I'd have happily bet Baggy a fair amount that Cave would be 13 for this game... and now I'm not so sure. But that could easily be nothing. Doak responds to a few questions, they write it all up on the site, that isn't necessarily Doak's thoughts.

I'd rather wait until we see the team sheet before going berserk.
I read the piece very carefully to be sure of what Doakie said as distinct from the "commentary". If that had been on any site other that the Official Ulster Rugby site I would have left it as some chube writing.

Thing is this is a piece written by someone at Ulster Rugby. When your subject is the "wealth of talent" at your disposal in glowing positive terms yet give no place to a man who has contributed massively to the last few years and a brave few before that, and furthermore the man who played 12 in your last big game & played for Ireland at 12 in the last game???????????

Sorry, I'm well aware that I can be seen as a conspiracy theorist, but given the recent selections and my certain knowledge that D4 are picking our 13, given my certain knowledge that nobody at UR have said a word to Darren about where he does or doesn't stand, now or in a years time, then I choose to read something into this.

You are all big boys & girls, make your own mind.
NEVER MOVE ON. Years on, I cannot ever watch Ireland with anything but indifference, I continue to wish for the imminent death of Donal Spring, the FIRFUC's executioner of Wee Paddy & Wee Stu, and I hate the FIRFUCs with undiminished passion.
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Re: UR & the case of the invisible centre

Post by Cockatrice »

baggy….. I am with you on this I love conspiracy theories.

The first name on the team sheet is Payne at 13, the team is then built round that stance, we then don't play our best 15 at 15 and we aren't able to play our best 13 at 13.

This then extends to the bench as there is the best place to put Olding who might even be our best 13 so as he can cover 10, 13 and possibly 15 which he could probably turn his hand to as well. It also meant that we had to bring in an NIQ at 15 to cover one mans indulgence for the 13 shirt and lead to yet another Ulster centre possibly leaving for new pastures.

The answer to all this would have been to call D4's bluff and let Payne go to Leinster but we didn't so the problem presumably will continue until the AI's when they will all come to their senses and see the obvious.
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