Where did it all go wrong?

Talk about the men in white, and everything Ulster!!

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Dave
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Re: Where did it all go wrong?

Post by Dave »

therealspratt wrote:
Dublin4 wrote:Looking at the comments on this thread, it's interesting that Ulster fans never seem to care that you don't have a single team in the AIL Division 1A.
My club is one of the more prominent in that league and our players either have their eye on advancement to Leinster or have come back from the academy or some such involvement. The result is that we have a club structure that is pretty professional for guys who don't get paid a sausage. We play the other top clubs in Leinster and some from Munster. We will have a Connacht team in the league next season.
But there is nobody in sight from Ulster.
I would love to see Ulster having a couple of super clubs that would add to the AIL top division and provide a bedrock for your province. Without that presence, your provincial team is like a house without foundations.
The Ulster Bank AIL final recently was of the high standard that is now commonplace in Division 1A and is way ahead of the halcyon days of the AIL in the 1990s. It's the bridge to provincial success.
They don't?
D4 has come with this nonsense before about Ulster fans not caring. Of course we care.
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BaggyTrousers
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Re: Where did it all go wrong?

Post by BaggyTrousers »

We have a thread for AIL, this isn't it.

This is about the governance of Ulster Rugby pro team. What is below that is undoubtedly relevant in general, but not specifically to the issue here of ineffective leadership, both coaching & general management.

To be fair to Fit, there are things he has done well, including in fairness increasing player participation in overall numbers, though of course, we all know the "adult male" category is in serious trouble. Some quibble 'about how much of the stadium build is to his credit, but if he was not in charge of the planning he was certainly there for the build. We got a very adequate free stadium.

That's enough fairness. The fact is, he has been watching 2 coaches for many years bickering and pulling against each other, not content with that, he gets a third dickhead in to join the fight. Meanwhile, he stands on the sideline pontificating on matters beyond his knowledge but throwing out soundbites about us becoming world leaders.

A good CEO will do what he's good at, the rest he will make sure the right people are doing those jobs. Fit has singularly failed to do so, the Clarke Doak fiasco being an indictment of the CEO who stood by and watched it for bloody years. I'd ask him to reflect on how he could have allowed this to go on for so long when very clearly, it just had to have an effect on the rugby.
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Re: Where did it all go wrong?

Post by Dublin4 »

We have a thread for AIL, this isn't it.
But isn't this part of your problem? Seeing these as entirely separate concerns.
Good AIL sides should be feeding right into your provincial set up and be a continuum.
The good players not yet up to Pro 12 should be playing week in week out in the AIL Division 1A against the same standard coming from clubs in Leinster and Munster.
Joey Carbery starred for Clontarf in the AIL final twelve months ago aged 20. In the week of his 21st birthday he played for Ireland having moved up to Leinster Pro 12 games earlier in the season. Ringrose had a fairly similar progress.
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Re: Where did it all go wrong?

Post by therealspratt »

Dublin4 wrote:
We have a thread for AIL, this isn't it.
But isn't this part of your problem? Seeing these as entirely separate concerns.
Good AIL sides should be feeding right into your provincial set up and be a continuum.
The good players not yet up to Pro 12 should be playing week in week out in the AIL Division 1A against the same standard coming from clubs in Leinster and Munster.
Joey Carbery starred for Clontarf in the AIL final twelve months ago aged 20. In the week of his 21st birthday he played for Ireland having moved up to Leinster Pro 12 games earlier in the season. Ringrose had a fairly similar progress.
There has been plenty of dissection over the years of the failings of Ulster with regards to the AIL and the club game in general, not only isn't there an Ulster team in 1A but there isn't a Belfast team in the top 2 divisions. What is our semi-academy side in Queens is down there in 2A as opposed to UCD's success up there in 1A. Some of this is down to how the branch view the clubs, some down to issues in the clubs themselves, and some to do with the disadvantages that we face in terms of player numbers. There isn't yet the fluidity that we should aspire to in getting GAA players to switch over, a lot of school leavers feel the pull of the English and Scottish universities and are lost to the clubs, and various other issues. People do care about these things in Ulster.
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Re: Where did it all go wrong?

Post by bazzaj »

When I was playing Bangor, Dungannon, Instonians, Ballymena, North, Ballymena and Malone were up there with the top sides in Ireland and had been for years.
Collegians had lost their senior status despite their feeder school being the strongest.
Their problem was the brain drain.

The alarm bells should have started ringing then.
However everyone was more concerned about preserving their own interests.

Enter professionalism and Bangor followed Collegians path to oblivion.
Noone reacted, not their problem, apart from the formation of Harlequins when North were similarly staring down the barrel.
Then they all followed like a deck of cards each clubs demise being seen in isolation and being allowed to happen.

It was rare that a student side would be our top representatives back in the day.
Queens had an the odd exceptional year but no more than that.
However it makes sense given that they have a steady regular stream of players at their disposal unlike the rest.
Student teams will not be effected by brain drain and are the exceptions.

The hindsight solutions could be talked about and have been. but the fact was the whole problem was not addressed at any level other than the amateurs running the individual clubs who were left to their own devices.

Part of it was a refusal to change certainly in Bangor case.
They had employed a visionary New Zealand coach but the club was too set in their ways to change to his ideas.

That is symptomatic of our people. we don't generally like or embrace change which means we don't evolve and eventually we are left behind.
Individual visionaries are shunned by the masses as the amateurs are desperate to keep hold of their boys clubs.

I fear the horse has bolted.
D4s comments are accurate not so much with the supporters caring but the club's themselves and the Ulster branch.
Supporters follow success in general and the opposite applies.

Ulster Rugby has abandoned and lost its roots by attempting to bypass the club system as a shortsighted shortcut.
They are paying the price.

Has the horse bolted?
Not sure but until we start building from the bottom in terms of investment and see the whole problem as a collective responsibility. it's going to be more of the same for the foreseeable.
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Re: Where did it all go wrong?

Post by Rooster »

I suppose if we go back to the original title of the thread the answer would be , totally unrealistic expectations fuelled by the CEO saying we would be best side in the world instead of going for a more achievable consistent top 3 of the league.
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Re: Where did it all go wrong?

Post by scrum5 »

therealspratt wrote:
Dublin4 wrote:Looking at the comments on this thread, it's interesting that Ulster fans never seem to care that you don't have a single team in the AIL Division 1A.
My club is one of the more prominent in that league and our players either have their eye on advancement to Leinster or have come back from the academy or some such involvement. The result is that we have a club structure that is pretty professional for guys who don't get paid a sausage. We play the other top clubs in Leinster and some from Munster. We will have a Connacht team in the league next season.
But there is nobody in sight from Ulster.
I would love to see Ulster having a couple of super clubs that would add to the AIL top division and provide a bedrock for your province. Without that presence, your provincial team is like a house without foundations.
The Ulster Bank AIL final recently was of the high standard that is now commonplace in Division 1A and is way ahead of the halcyon days of the AIL in the 1990s. It's the bridge to provincial success.
They don't?
Some do.
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Re: Where did it all go wrong?

Post by Cockatrice »

If not mistaken our CEO has three targets by which he has previously claimed he will be judged.....

1. Our road to WD.. a statement that should now sit beside Bush's WMD statement.

2. Financial strength.... we go into next year in the red big time from what I hear.

3. Improvement of the domestics game including specific claims how many clubs we would have in the top tier.. none

Failed on all three criteria
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Re: Where did it all go wrong?

Post by ColinM »

Cockatrice wrote:If not mistaken our CEO has three targets by which he has previously claimed he will be judged.....

1. Our road to WD.. a statement that should now sit beside Bush's WMD statement.

2. Financial strength.... we go into next year in the red big time from what I hear.

3. Improvement of the domestics game including specific claims how many clubs we would have in the top tier.. none

Failed on all three criteria
But
1. The plan remains in tact we have just hit a few bumps in the road...Afoa's debilitating injury, Humphs sudden departure, the phased introduction of the worlds best coach outside Lisburn, and the taking away of Pienaar. Apart from all that the plan is on target for WD by 2025.

2. We have a new stadium the envy of the world (see 1. above), we have the best average gate in the league and we have the band. We are on track

3. Following counting all the kids in the Cavan blitz and a taster session at a non traditional school in Newry, the domestic game now has more participants than at any time before ever. So it has
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Re: Where did it all go wrong?

Post by Tender »

Agh give him time, sure we can all get behind the boys, log onto the brilliant wifi, have a Subway washed down with a pint in a plastic cup, enjoy the Friday night event and SUFTUM, till yer legs fall off.
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Re: Where did it all go wrong?

Post by Cap'n Grumpy »

Rooster wrote:I suppose if we go back to the original title of the thread the answer would be , totally unrealistic expectations fuelled by the CEO saying we would be best side in the world instead of going for a more achievable consistent top 3 of the league.
I don't recall the CEO ever saying we would be the best side in the world, despite it being oft repeated here. What he said many times was that we would aim to be the best side in the world, and that perhaps is indeed a proper target. (If I recall correctly, his reasoning was along the lines that you don't aim to conquer the foothills, but to reach the summit. That way if you fail to reach the foothills, you are rock bottom, but at least if you fail to reach the summit, you are still higher than most - I paraphrase of course).

I don't blame him for setting grand targets. Whether they were realistic is another matter.

As CT has pointed out though, he did express other targets, and we have fallen and are falling a long way short of those.
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Re: Where did it all go wrong?

Post by Hapax Legomenon »

Cockatrice wrote:If not mistaken our CEO has three targets by which he has previously claimed he will be judged.....

1. Our road to WD.. a statement that should now sit beside Bush's WMD statement.

2. Financial strength.... we go into next year in the red big time from what I hear.

3. Improvement of the domestics game including specific claims how many clubs we would have in the top tier.. none

Failed on all three criteria
That's not exactly news is it?
We know he's a clown, but what can we do about it? Feck all that's what.
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Re: Where did it all go wrong?

Post by Cockatrice »

Don't know if this helps...

When Shane Logan was introduced as Ulster Rugby's new Chief Executive in February 2010, he said the following: "Whatever plan we put together has to deliver Ulster being top of the pile in Ireland, Europe and indeed the world."
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Re: Where did it all go wrong?

Post by Snipe Watson »

Cockatrice wrote:Don't know if this helps...

When Shane Logan was introduced as Ulster Rugby's new Chief Executive in February 2010, he said the following: "Whatever plan we put together has to deliver Ulster being top of the pile in Ireland, Europe and indeed the world."
Yes he definitely mentioned best in the world.
He's a spoofer and started the way he meant to go on.
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Re: Where did it all go wrong?

Post by damianmcr »

Ferris posted the link on Twitter asking do Ulster fans agree. Tuohy replied only scratching the surface.
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