Bluenoses vs Ulster

[MightyRearranger]

I know the game was a bit grim in itself, but I'm actually not that disheartened by the loss either.

A year or two ago the general consensus on this forum seemed to be that were too many Dave's and that we should clear decks and give the youth a chance. As i see it there's an extent to which we're now starting to do that and a big difference between yesterdays shoeing and some of the previous ones is the number of young players who showed signs they might have something about them. I thought the likes of McBurney and Dalton played quite well and while both Hume and Kernohan made some mistakes they both also had a bit of a spark about them in attack.

We all knew before yesterday that Leinster's second string is stronger than ours, but looking at what's currently in the academy I'm hopeful that if a number of them can step up and new players keep coming through we'll be in a much stronger position in a few years time.

[Dave]

Some points I agree with there Rum, mostly around physicality and conditioning of our players especially the younger ones. Some of those guys were the same or similar age grades, but condition and in terms of sheer muscle bulk, look about 2-3 years behind. Ive banged on about this for a while. You can have all the skils and bottle you want, but if your physically outgunned, no chance- look at the difference between Porter and TOT for example. Treadwell looks liked a perished rubber band in terms of muscle definition. The only one who looks physically a match is McBurney. Dalton has spunk but néeds a bit of extra muscle and dynamism too.

I agree Kernoghan and Huston look out of their depth and Lyttle got very little ball. Hume looks good going forward but again outgunned physically.
No doubt the usual excuses ref callow team, no time to blend as a unit, etc but it didnt do leinster any harm. Until we measure standards against the likes of Ladybois we're f#cking kidding ourselves about progress and "ones for the future" The old saying is its always jam tomorrow.
Stockdale and Hendo are outliers. The S&C team need to take a hard look at themselves and get these guys into some sort of fast track programme focussing on developing dynamics and power.
Of all the new guys, Balacoune is the only one flourishing in the backs (Lowry has been frustratingly unlucky) McBurny and EOS in the forwards. Dalton is a very young lock but has his chance now if hes applies himself. The difference in experience at titghthead between Herbst and TOT was glaring. TOT is 2 years off holding his own- Porter being his benchmark milestone imo.

Didnt see enough of Montgomery, but again he looks physically immature in comparison to Mexicans of similar age. Arnold and Farrell illustrate my conditioning point at Munter, Whitten and Annett in the PRL for example.

We have some players that are just too small. Look at Kyle McCall, I'm gutted for him as a person after injury, but two medics should not be able to come on the field and pick up a prop to carry him off. Shanahan was a disgrace yesterday. At least five tackles missed and more not even attempted.

The previous head S&C coach was let go so only time will tell if improvements can be made. The players themselves can be as much to blame particularly through diet. Most gains are made in the kitchen. If the players go home and eat shyte then the gym time is wasted.

Porter is a freak in the gym. He can reportedly squat 350kg. If that is anyway true then he must have seriously good genes and he could have been a top level powerlifter. I don't think he can be a fair benchmark.

[UlsterNo9]

A bit disheartening to read comments from the supporters on social media and this forum, also read a afew comments on FB by people who should really know better. Ulster are in a poor place at the moment, a lot of this was directly attributable to the Moron that was there to give direction and allowed the club to slip, that along with players retiring and our obvious poor signings , things are bad and things may get worse, but, I fully believe that the club, the province is going to throw the reverse gear and start getting it right, Jonny Petrie I believe will be crucial to that reverse, along with Dan , I have no doubt that there will be a shake up in coaching ticket , not thta I want to see anyone go, just I feel a next level is required . The young lads coming through either Ulster born or not, want to be successful and probably more Ulster committed than some of the fans are.

Building a rugby team is like building a house. You look for the best architects, the best builders - and then you let them do their jobs. Petrie is that Architect, Dan , Bryn and the Academy are those builders ,

I was right about Logan , and I am right about Petrie, Jonny if your reading this , here is one important piece of advice, go against some of the amateur decision makers, they are there for self interest and holding the club back, listen to some of the guys at grass roots, some of them actually do know what their doing.

I am not down hearted , disappointed yes, but so is every player that wore the shirt last night, the future is bright.

Kofi

Although both sides had young players think most of the Leinster gas had at least a year or two on our guys- and in development terms that is huge. Kernohan is 19 ffs, Dalton 20- remember what Stockdale was like when he debuted at 19 -very raw, but that early exposure and a good summer transformed him [plus he was training and playing with Bowe and Trimble]. Those guys will come through but its unreasonable to expect them to be fully ready now, I'd say most young players struggle with defence at first. But the talent is definitely there- the physicality and experience just have to catch up- and they only get that through playing.
That was in no way good to watch but we just have to suck it up for now and hope for dividends in future seasons. Leinster and Connacht are in better positions depth wise as they have settled systems, settled squads and settled coaches, we are of course recovering form a cluster ****. I think we'll get there but its going to be tough watching for a while. I still thought it was a better performance than against Munster away.. which is telling, Munster benefited from some luck, Leinster where much more efficient.

I agree with Kofi, its tough result but we are headed in the right direction and coming form a tough place. Tighten up syrup all round- we are growing a new squad, it takes perseverance and time but we'll get there.

Dan has done a pretty good job managing appearances and delivering in Europe Pointswise, the only fixtures that haven't fulfilled expectations this season are the Connacht games. We're probably 5pts down in the League at this stage which could make things very tricky in Apr/May.

I know the game was a bit grim in itself, but I'm actually not that disheartened by the loss either.

A year or two ago the general consensus on this forum seemed to be that were too many Dave's and that we should clear decks and give the youth a chance. As i see it there's an extent to which we're now starting to do that and a big difference between yesterdays shoeing and some of the previous ones is the number of young players who showed signs they might have something about them. I thought the likes of McBurney and Dalton played quite well and while both Hume and Kernohan made some mistakes they both also had a bit of a spark about them in attack.

We all knew before yesterday that Leinster's second string is stronger than ours, but looking at what's currently in the academy I'm hopeful that if a number of them can step up and new players keep coming through we'll be in a much stronger position in a few years time.

Glad to see much sense being spoken

Six months into a thirty six month project to make us competitive again, if Petrie, McFarland and Cunningham can have us making Pro 14 semis by the end of that period then I'd give them another thirty six months to be making Heineken Cup semis. We're an entire playing generation cycle away (ten to twelve years) from where we need to be such is the damage that has been done previously at grass roots level.

Producing three Ulster born players in the past ten to twelve years in Henderson, Jackson and Stockdale that are considered 25 plus international cap standard is embarrassing. Where still is the next Ulster born international coming from? Much work still to be done.

[thecrouch]

Some points I agree with there Rum, mostly around physicality and conditioning of our players especially the younger ones. Some of those guys were the same or similar age grades, but condition and in terms of sheer muscle bulk, look about 2-3 years behind. Ive banged on about this for a while. You can have all the skils and bottle you want, but if your physically outgunned, no chance- look at the difference between Porter and TOT for example. Treadwell looks liked a perished rubber band in terms of muscle definition. The only one who looks physically a match is McBurney. Dalton has spunk but néeds a bit of extra muscle and dynamism too.

I agree Kernoghan and Huston look out of their depth and Lyttle got very little ball. Hume looks good going forward but again outgunned physically.
No doubt the usual excuses ref callow team, no time to blend as a unit, etc but it didnt do leinster any harm. Until we measure standards against the likes of Ladybois we're f#cking kidding ourselves about progress and "ones for the future" The old saying is its always jam tomorrow.
Stockdale and Hendo are outliers. The S&C team need to take a hard look at themselves and get these guys into some sort of fast track programme focussing on developing dynamics and power.
Of all the new guys, Balacoune is the only one flourishing in the backs (Lowry has been frustratingly unlucky) McBurny and EOS in the forwards. Dalton is a very young lock but has his chance now if hes applies himself. The difference in experience at titghthead between Herbst and TOT was glaring. TOT is 2 years off holding his own- Porter being his benchmark milestone imo.

Didnt see enough of Montgomery, but again he looks physically immature in comparison to Mexicans of similar age. Arnold and Farrell illustrate my conditioning point at Munter, Whitten and Annett in the PRL for example.

We have some players that are just too small. Look at Kyle McCall, I'm gutted for him as a person after injury, but two medics should not be able to come on the field and pick up a prop to carry him off. Shanahan was a disgrace yesterday. At least five tackles missed and more not even attempted.

The previous head S&C coach was let go so only time will tell if improvements can be made. The players themselves can be as much to blame particularly through diet. Most gains are made in the kitchen. If the players go home and eat shyte then the gym time is wasted.

Porter is a freak in the gym. He can reportedly squat 350kg. If that is anyway true then he must have seriously good genes and he could have been a top level powerlifter. I don't think he can be a fair benchmark.

Leinster players in general are not a good bench mark, when they're all in private schools lifting weights at 7 in the morning and being treated like professionals from a young age.

[UlsterNo9]

I'm hearing McCall out for the season.

It certainly looked bad on the slo-mo replay. We are running out of loose heads rapidly with O'Hagan probably out for the rest of the season also.

McCall hamstring off the bone, same one he did before.

[nonplussed]

I'm hearing McCall out for the season.

It certainly looked bad on the slo-mo replay. We are running out of loose heads rapidly with O'Hagan probably out for the rest of the season also.

If only we'd speak to Paddy Mac

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[Bart S]

The difficulty as fans we have is that whilst most people acknowledge this is a long term project, we want to see signs we are on the right track and not being led down a garden path. Unfortunately that will take time, particularly in a team like ulster where depth is a real issue.

We need to show patience with some of these guys. Yes, some of them won’t ultimately be good enough but we have to give them the opportunity and not determine their futures on the back of one or two bad performances. If the young guys werent making mistakes at this stage then it shouldnt be a long term project!

Look at Stockdale. If we had ditched him based on not being good enough how would we feel now? Look at Hume. Has shown some real potential even if he has things tl learn naturally defensively. You could say the same about Ringrose a couple of seasons ago, yet Leinster recognised the talent and ability which was there and worked with him to iron those things out.

The other thing of course is that some of the young guns will develop better in a stronger team than playing in a weak one. Unfortunately ulster dont have that luxury much these days as games which in the past were looking like safe fixtures to blood a couple of young guns now need more first teamers in there to be sure of victory. We have seen people like Kernoghan, Lowry, Hume, Balcoune and McPhillips all perform well over the past 12 months whislt playing in stronger teams.They benefot from on the field guidance from experienced players in different situations which cannot be replicated.

Guys like Lowry and Hume will be better for some tough days. It is how they recover and the coaches continuing to show faith in them which we need.

We are in a battle in the league now, with mainly winnabke home fixtures but some tough away ones. We certainly cannot compete on both fronts with our threadbare squad. On the one hand it would be great to achieve knockout rugby in europe in terms of raising ulster’s profile again but i would worry about the impact on the keague, particularly as Scarlets and Benetton won’t have the same distraction.

[Deraless]

Part of the criticism levelled at Ulster Schools' fixation with the Schools Cup has been that they have produced gym bunnies with no basic skill. Along comes a player like Lowry with natural talent to spare, who can beat defenders in a phone box, and he just gets wiped out repeatedly. Every time I've seen him play for Ulster he leaves with his head stoved in. He is game though , and is prepared to get stuck in, but what a cruel irony. And even worse he will have to bulk up to survive in the modern game and thus lose some of that skill and pace.

So let's have some dirty big lumps who do an 11 sec 100 m, and can both run over the top of defenders or side-step them and off-load please. Not too much to ask!

The Cavalry isn't coming over the hill to help us any time soon either. It appears we have thrown our support behind a group of youngsters, some of whom look like they could make something of themselves. But they really have to want it and apply themselves. And bust themselves. I'm not sure I see that in many of them.

The way the Leinster team hit rucks and supported last night was a million miles ahead of Ulster. The reason they didn't completely annihilate us was because they lacked accuracy at times, rather than us doing particularly well really. And while we might have a couple of aces up our sleeve, they have a full deck.

You look at guys like Stewart and McPhillips who were a representative 9/10 partnership. Does anyone truely believe they look like future Ireland players? They will be leap-fogged by Leinster players in the pecking order before long.

In the Leinster set up new guys come on the scene and they have to be damn good as there's so much depth and competition. We need to be at that level. The frustrating thing is we can see it, ffs half our Academy went to school with players in the current Leinster set-up, so it's not like they're a bunch of aliens. It's certainly not achievable for years though.




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[solidarity]

As 9 says, a lot of sense being talked on this thread. We knew this wasn't going to be a good season and the next few will probably not be much better; a few great wins, a few grim defeats. Let's just keep cool, enjoy the good bits; put up with the bad. We'll see how things turn out under the new regime.

SUFTUM

[rumncoke]

Playing for the under 20s representative side means very little .

Because a new team is selected every year about 80% will fail to become professional players because the turnover in professional rugby is not annual - most professional players will be good for 8 years ie between 23 and 31 .

If they have not made the grade by 24 most will be looking at some other career path .

And many may well make that decision at 22 .

Thus a 20 year old will have two years to bulk and mature before realising he has no future in professional rugby.


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[Big-al]

Playing for the under 20s representative side means very little .

Because a new team is selected every year about 80% will fail to become professional players because the turnover in professional rugby is not annual - most professional players will be good for 8 years ie between 23 and 31 .

If they have not made the grade by 24 most will be looking at some other career path .

And many may well make that decision at 22 .

Thus a 20 year old will have two years to bulk and mature before realising he has no future in professional rugby.


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Not true.

[Cockatrice]

With all the talk about McPhillips lying too deep.... I wonder does he simply rock up on a Saturday and play his own game or does he take instructions from the coaching staff.

Btw still not convinced Payne is a top defence coach maybe time will tell and anyway if players simply can’t tackle then they need to learn.

[justinr73]

The consensus in the Horse Show after the game was that the Leinster fans were marginally less smug and insincere than usual, largely based upon their favourable comments about our “youngsters”. Mind you, they appeared to be under the impression that Shanners was fresh out of 6th form

The exile from Blackpool was particularly challenging but I confirmed that blue suited him more than tangerine.

Someone took great exception to the Ulster fleg at the final whistle.

Oh and the pitch was annexed by the the Catalans........

[Dublin4]

I was disappointed to see so few Ulster fans in the crowd on Saturday.
There's usually a good number down for this fixture, regardless of how many reserves are playing for the two sides.
Maybe it's the sterling rate being affected by Brexit.

As for the match itself, it was really a glorified training session for both teams and forgettable, which it now is.

[big mervyn]

The consensus in the Horse Show after the game was that the Leinster fans were marginally less smug and insincere than usual, largely based upon their favourable comments about our “youngsters”. Mind you, they appeared to be under the impression that Shanners was fresh out of 6th form

The exile from Blackpool was particularly challenging but I confirmed that blue suited him more than tangerine.

Someone took great exception to the Ulster fleg at the final whistle.

Oh and the pitch was annexed by the the Catalans........

Heard about that. Seemed to be a few ballbegs in the North stand. sems to go with a full house.