The end of school power?

Questions for the players, the management, the UAFC, the URSC or other supporters... Someone might answer you!! (and pigs might fly)

Moderator: Moderators

Post Reply
User avatar
browner
Lord Chancellor
Posts: 8670
Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2005 10:38 pm
Location: Globe Vienna crashed and burned...Giant TCR SL2 rising from the ashes.

The end of school power?

Post by browner »

BRENDAN FANNING

AT a meeting of the Leinster Branch management committee last week, a letter was read out which will have a profound impact on the way we organise rugby in this country. The letter was from a solicitor, which helped to focus the minds of those around the table. It gave notice of intent to issue High Court proceedings against the Leinster Branch and the IRFU. Before the blazers had made it to the car-park the wheels were in motion to formulate a response.

The proceedings relate to a branch rule which precludes certain schoolboys from playing rugby with their local clubs, without permission from their school. The boys are not contracted to the schools, you understand, it just appears that way. Evidently one parent has had enough of this. So he is taking a case to allow his son to associate with whoever he wants in his free time. He believes this is a constitutional right.

This is not the first time this rule has come under the spotlight. Last May, Greystones tabled a motion to have the rule scrapped, but in an emotive branch meeting they were knocked back. The schools make up a powerful lobby in Irish rugby. They make the case that in certain schools the boys get plenty of rugby to be going on with; and not only do they not need any more, but to indulge in same would have implications for health and safety. In taking this position they establish themselves as the arbiters of how much is enough. They take it upon themselves to be the sole dispensers in this arrangement. And they have previously included on their list schools where rugby was hanging on by a thread.

Many - not all - of the clubs have a fundamental problem with this. They are encouraged by the IRFU to get on board with mini rugby. So they nurture these kids from about seven years of age until secondary school. Then they lose touch with most of them because the schools say that custody is negotiable only on their terms. For years the clubs accepted this. Then they examined the reasons why they couldn't fill their teams at under 19 level and beyond, and looked at the lost teenage years.

These concerns extend beyond getting silverware on the sideboard. There is a social dimension to involvement in a club that surpasses your ability to play the game. The kids who are not stars on the first team become comfortable on lower teams; they socialise in the club; they pay their subs; they manage a side or carry the bag or sit on a committee. They become stitched into the fabric of the organisation. If you take them out of that club environment through their teen years then you won't see many of them back again as school leavers, for that's the point at which the haemorrhage starts. Stemming that flow is central to reigniting the club game in this country.

Now that we are marking the 10th anniversary of professionalism, it's worth remembering the primary motivation in the IRFU's zealous defence of amateurism: they were fearful of being left even further behind. They knew we didn't have the numbers to compete in a professional game. And we didn't have the numbers because the Union's policy down the years was to develop the sport through the fee-paying schools, and to let the GAA and FAI look after the rest.

It was a neat carve up of the schools territory, and if the IRFU were happy to stick to their small patch on the high ground, then the others weren't bothered about invading their space.

The consequence of this protectionism is that we don't have enough players, or coaches, or managers, or referees. Moreover, the schools came to enjoy a level of power wholly inappropriate to the new landscape. They have abused this power shamefully. They have bullied and threatened and behaved as if the key issue was the preservation of those who run the schools game rather than the game itself.

The IRFU have long known that this situation is not just untenable, but actively damaging to their core business. They knew also that if they let it follow its natural course, then sooner or later the bus would turn down the quays towards the Four Courts.

It ignores the number of kids, and clubs, who have suffered in the interim

The attraction of that journey was that it would spare them a confrontation with the schools. Sadly, this is from the ostrich school of management: keep your head in the sand until the wind changes. And it ignores the number of kids, and clubs, who have suffered in the interim.

Well, the gap is about to be closed off. Back in May the schools had an opportunity to accept a proposal which would have ring-fenced their junior and senior cup players. They would have none of it. Now they face having the gates opened for them, possibly with no conditions attached. You would hope that common sense will prevail, that schoolboys are free to build a relationship with their local club, one that will continue in life after school; that it doesn't have to impinge on their relationship with the school; that in the process everybody gets looked after from the superstar to the late developer to the kid who struggles to lace a boot. We shouldn't have to engage the legal profession to enforce what common sense dictates.

A response from the Leinster Branch is expected sooner rather than later.
Stand up for PICU R.V.H.
User avatar
colinh
Lord Chancellor
Posts: 5444
Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2005 11:16 am
Contact:

Post by colinh »

Another Browner special ... good post.

Colin :twisted:
Romeo47 Alpha 52
User avatar
pwrmoore
Rí­ na Cúige Uladh
Posts: 11885
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2005 8:51 am
Location: East Belfast

Post by pwrmoore »

Very interesting post Browner, and particularly pertinent to me as my own son has just made the transition from an excellent mini-rugby set-up at CIYMS to a completely new one at his school.

I await to see what the outcome of this will be but it did seem like a complete travesty to break up a group of players who had been playing together for 3 or 4 years and were making enormous progress while at the same time smashing their links with a club which would only benefit from having the opportunity to keep them through to playing for the senior teams.
Paul.

C'mon Ulsterrrrrrrrr! :red:
fermain
Rí­ na Cúige Uladh
Posts: 12929
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2005 12:09 am
Location: Beer garden

Post by fermain »

Its about time the boys could choose to play for either the school and the club and both! Or not to play if they don't want to...
:red: :red: :red: :red: :red: :red: :red:
Save lives, become an organ donor!!
User avatar
pwrmoore
Rí­ na Cúige Uladh
Posts: 11885
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2005 8:51 am
Location: East Belfast

Post by pwrmoore »

bit of deja vu there YM :lol:
Paul.

C'mon Ulsterrrrrrrrr! :red:
User avatar
browner
Lord Chancellor
Posts: 8670
Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2005 10:38 pm
Location: Globe Vienna crashed and burned...Giant TCR SL2 rising from the ashes.

Post by browner »

E-Mail Print Version Add to Clippings
Harsh lessons ahead if schools made to reform
Tuesday September 27th 2005
ADVERTISEMENT

LAST Tuesday in Dublin a special meeting of the Section B Leinster Schools was held. The main objective was to provide the opportunity for each school to put forward its position on the issue of underage club involvement given the level of misinformation appearing in sections of the media in recent weeks.

What the metropolitan clubs are seeking - this is a rural/Dublin city and suburban divide - is unrestricted open access to Section B schoolboys save for those making the Junior (under 15) and Senior (under 18) squads. In other words the top 30 boys in those two age groups would be 'ring fenced' for the school. Beyond that it would be open season.

Hanging over everybody at present is the shadow of the High Court with one Dublin club challenging the IRFU and its constituent Branch on the basis that "a talented young player's career is being blighted" by the Leinster Schools/Youth agreements stretching back to 1984. The 15-year-old schoolboy concerned attends one of the stronger rugby schools but so far no request has been received by that school from the parent concerned for his son's release.

Lest the impression is given that 'ring fencing' the prestige Junior and Senior squads implies little meaningful rugby for the rest, the reality is quite the opposite. From under 13, where some of the mid-ranking schools field as many as four teams, up to under 18 there are full fixture lists plus mid and end of season competitions.

If the concern is with the so-called weaker boys and if the objective is genuinely one of recruitment and spreading the net, then why is it that Section B Schools are being targeted?

What of the boys who are not attending Section B (or indeed Section A) schools, do they not have the same right under this legal threat 'to be treated fairly'? Bottom line interest, as confirmed by almost every school represented at last Tuesday's meeting, is in having the cream of the crop.

Youths rugby was designed in the mid sixties primarily for boys attending non-rugby playing schools. The system was up until recently geared towards giving boys in non-affiliated and Section A schools the opportunity to play competitive underage club and representative rugby. Hence the Shane Horgans, Mark McHughs, Trevor Brennans, Niall Ronans and Sean O'Briens - to name but a few of the many to come through the Youth representative system.

A former club, provincial and international team-mate of mine and the first ever coach to the Leinster Youths, is incensed at the image being portrayed of Youth rugby of late.

Suffice to say that he and clubs in the midland area he represents do not want boys from rugby playing schools made available throughout the season because it destroys incentive for the boys attending non-rugby playing schools and for whom the system was set up in the first place.

Should this case go the full legal distance and should the parent/club at the centre of it get his and their way, then the game in this country has a serious problem going forward.

Schools rugby is our bedrock. I repeat for those who care enough to heed, tinker and the price we may pay is scary.
Stand up for PICU R.V.H.
User avatar
browner
Lord Chancellor
Posts: 8670
Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2005 10:38 pm
Location: Globe Vienna crashed and burned...Giant TCR SL2 rising from the ashes.

Post by browner »

THE ongoing battle within Leinster between its clubs and schools seems set to dramatically move up a gear in the coming days - and the schools look like ceding the high moral ground upon which they have stood on the issue for months now.

The intractable quarrel, which has spurred one parent to take the matter to the courts, fundamentally centres on the restrictive practice whereby schools are allowed to exclude certain young players from lining out for clubs.

A compromise had appeared to be drawn up whereby a certain number of players outside a select grouping, for example those on senior cup panels, would be allowed to play for their clubs.

This compromise, although not at all a satisfactory concession to what is a wholly unedifying restriction on the sporting activities of young children, had been due for ratification at a branch meeting last Tuesday.

However, the putative peace offering was hastily withdrawn when only two of the 25 schools represented at the meeting assented to this conciliatory action.

It seems now that the Leinster Branch, aware of the potential legal ramifications should the test case undermine the schools' anachronistic stance, will now have to initiate a firm policy in the absence of any willingness on behalf of the schools to compromise.

The IRFU, and more significantly its chief executive Philip Browne, are extremely embarrassed at the ongoing controversy, although their inaction on the issue does not absolve them of complete culpability.

Now it is believed that they have backed the Leinster Branch's firm stance on the issue and its new motion which could be prepared in time for a committee meeting next week.

Ironically, this development occurred on the same day that a clear last-ditch attempt to inject some adrenalin into the moribund club scene was launched by the IRFU and AIB.

The headline-grabbing portion of the initiative is an opportunity for the league's brightest talents to tackle their Scottish counterparts in an international which will take place in Donnybrook on March 10, as a precursor to that weekend's Six Nations clash in Lansdowne Road.

With the emphasis placed firmly on re-acquainting clubs with their communities - if not always the local young schoolchildren - AIB will also continue their sponsorship of the league.

As part of this, there will be a new structure for the AIB League for the 2005/06 season, with 16 clubs contesting each championship with promotion and relegation across all three divisions.

As well as promotion and relegation across all three divisions, each of the semi-final winners will be playing for their respective divisional titles on the AIB League finals day.

Browne said: " The backbone of any rugby club is the community and by working with them at this level and providing them with the necessary assistance, we want to develop the clubs as a more community focused entity."

Browne knows more than most that if they continue to be deprived of a large tranche of the sport's youngest enthusiasts by self-centred elements, the clubs will need more than community rugby programmes to keep them alive for another generation.

David Kelly
Stand up for PICU R.V.H.
User avatar
browner
Lord Chancellor
Posts: 8670
Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2005 10:38 pm
Location: Globe Vienna crashed and burned...Giant TCR SL2 rising from the ashes.

Post by browner »

IT was decided last night, following a meeting of the management committee of the Leinster Branch, that players from Section B and non exempt Section A schools will now be available to the clubs.

Effectively, the clubs have scored a victory in the controversial battle as the schools are not in favour of the new system. But, crucially, the schools cup squads will be "ring-fenced" in what must be seen as a compromise of sorts.

The statement, issued following last night's meeting, said: "Schoolboys in Section B and non exempt Section A schools shall be eligible to play youths rugby with the exception of those boys who are included in the Junior Cup and Senior Cup panels in the same schools. The panels in Junior Cup to be 35 and the Seniors Cup to be 50."
Stand up for PICU R.V.H.
User avatar
browner
Lord Chancellor
Posts: 8670
Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2005 10:38 pm
Location: Globe Vienna crashed and burned...Giant TCR SL2 rising from the ashes.

Post by browner »

Schools lose in blame game

Sunday November 27th 2005

THE memory is seared in Paul Barr's mind. A couple of years ago Barr, now a rugby coach in Presentation College, Cork, was in Donnybrook watching Blackrock play in a Leinster Schools Cup match. He was greeted by the usual scene - a raucous gathering of pupils and parents and an atmosphere that couldn't fail to send a shiver down the spine. It was a Broadway production.

Barr's eye was momentarily deflected off-Broadway, though, to a club match that was due to start on Donnybrook's back pitch. As the players trooped out from the dressing rooms, one of them lingered at the railings and surveyed the action on the main stage. He was no more than 20, and, after a minute or two, Barr realised he had seen the figure before.

Two years earlier Barr had watched him play at out-half for Blackrock and Leinster schools, a talented kid used to being the centre of attention on the biggest Cup days. Then a leading character in the drama, now little more than a frustrated and wistful onlooker. The shouts calling him from the dreary back-pitch shook him out of his reverie. Barr couldn't help wondering, if he came back in two years, would the kid still be playing the game?

It is a memory that cuts to the heart of the sickness that is eating at Irish rugby. You can look for any number of reasons why Peter Stringer has so little competition as Ireland's first-choice scrum half or why Eddie O'Sullivan can see no obvious replacement for Ronan O'Gara at out-half than the 34-year-old David Humphreys, but the root of the problem must go back to the vast numbers that are lost to the game once their school careers finish.

For Barr and other schools' coaches it doesn't have to be a blame game. Yet whenever Ireland's form at senior level begins to dip there is a tendency in this country to scratch around for scapegoats and that is the signal for those involved in the schools game to reach for their flak jackets.

"We get criticised for everything that's wrong in Irish rugby," says Blackrock College's Fr Joe Gough, testily. "It always seems to be our fault."

It is easy to see what has raised Gough's ire. On the morning of Ireland's defeat against Australia last week, former Leinster coach Matt Williams - not for the first time - was disparaging of the standard of Irish schools rugby, comparing it unfavourably with the set-up in his native country. "I was jumped on before for criticising the Cup format in Ireland," Williams said. "It's all about winning - not developing players - where high-pressure, poor-quality rugby can be rewarded by winning. I don't agree with the concept."

In those sentiments, Williams would have his supporters. For many, the reverence in which the schools competitions are held and the inflated media coverage that follows their every move is not only unwarranted and crassly overblown, but at odds with the long-term health of Irish rugby. Apart from the initial head-rush experienced by those involved what exactly, it is asked, is the point?

The schools would counter that by asking why there should be a point at all. Even if you baulk at the elitist nature of Leinster's rugby-playing schools and the Ross O'Carroll-Kelly stereotypes that supposedly people them, it would seem a bit rich to ask Blackrock to apologise for decades of success or for the fact that they aren't providing the backbone of the current Ireland senior team.

"People seem to forget that the schools are there first and foremost for education," says Barr. "I think sometimes the IRFU treats the schools game as being just about players and I don't think there's as good a meeting of minds as there could be. The schools don't necessarily see their role as providing players and their mode of rugby is not geared towards that end. It's just a by-product of the fact that they are involved in the game."

It has always been said that the schools game is the bedrock of Irish rugby, but what that means has never been properly analysed. From the Irish schoolboys team of 1992/'93, five future senior internationals emerged - Humphreys, James Topping, Eric Miller, Conor McGuinness and Kieran Dawson - but that was an exceptional year. The 1996/'97 season yielded Brian O'Driscoll and Donncha O'Callaghan, the following year brought Gordon D'Arcy and Paul O'Connell. Increasingly, two players emerging any year from the schools set-up is seen as a reasonable vintage.

It shouldn't be so, of course. While comparisons with other sporting codes are problematic, it can be pointed out that in the GAA, while competitions at underage level have their own self-contained importance, there is usually one eye on future development. From club to school to university, the GAA offers a layered pathway for a youth to fulfill his potential. For the young rugby player school is king and, too often, the pinnacle of his career. Everything afterwards pales in comparison.

Understandably, the Union is trying to broaden its focus. Increasingly, money is being spent on youth rugby in an effort to find more Shane Horgans and Mark McHughs. No sport is more active in Tallaght where, from a zero base, Tallaght Youth Rugby Club now has more than 300 members and an established U20 side that survives without IRFU funding. Chris Green, their scrum-half, was recently picked to play for Leinster, an indicator of the progress being made.

The problem is that any benefits from such moves lie years down the road. From a situation where Irish underage soccer teams were dominated by kids from the traditional soccer nurseries like Belvedere and St Joseph's, such has been the spread of the game and the FAI's scouting network that kids from Kerry or Cavan can now aspire to join them.

In comparison, schools rugby remains static. Of the 32 players the Leinster U19s and U18s took to play Yorkshire last month, nearly two-thirds were made up of players from the big three of Blackrock, St Michael's and Belvedere. Since 1985, the Leinster Schools Cup has been won by just five different schools, suggesting a chronic scarcity of competition.

Or you can look at it a different way. This weekend Gough will take his Blackrock senior team to play the English champions. Blackrock expect to win. Last year the Ireland schools team beat England, Wales and France to win their second Triple Crown in three seasons, the only representative side at any age group, including senior, to rise above expectations.

"The fact is we're competitive at this level," says Gough. "We feel we are a match for anybody, whether we're playing England or Australia. No one can say the schools aren't doing their job. It's what happens after that where the problem lies. You can't say that's our fault."

That isn't to say that the elite schools can't raise their game. Ten years ago Fr Michael Shiel was coaching the Clongowes senior Cup team with former All Black Bruce Deans as his assistant. Like Matt Williams, Deans thought the Cup system was counter-productive and he also wanted the core squad cut to 25. "I had to explain to him," says Shiel, "that we had a squad of 40 and everybody got a chance. That's the way it always was and had to stay."

Shiel is just an observer these days and happy to be so. He trains a sevens team and "our senior Zs" for fun and bemoans the fact that the game of mini-rugby - focussing on the basic individual skills - hasn't spread more than it has. The pressure induced by the professional era astonishes him. "Someone said one day you played rugby to get away from the office, now it is the office."

For those who are left behind, though, there is the challenge of raising standards. Barr was involved in coaching the Irish schools team last year and remembers a trip to France. It was an eye-opening experience. "Their schools are virtually clubs in themselves," he says. "The Toulouse school was actually part of a stadium. It was effectively an academy."

Until Irish rugby goes the same way, he says, there is no reason to expect anything more than the odd Triple Crown or Six Nations title at senior level. It is one thing, he thinks, losing players to other sports or disciplines, but unforgivable to see them quitting through disillusionment or lack of opportunity, the core of the problem with Irish rugby.

He tells a story of an Irish schools centre he once coached. Last year he saw him playing for the Ireland U20s. The player marking him was an U18 hooker. His next outing was for the U21s against Italy. "I just thought," says Barr, "what kind of pre-match preparation did he have?"

Barr likes the idea of a strong club-based U20 national competition, but doubts whether the clubs would be able to afford it. Something has to be done, though. He thinks this year's Ireland U19 team could turn out to be special and knows they will be well coached. After that, he is fearful. "I'm asking myself how many of them will still be around in three or four years time."

Will we still be able to blame the schools?

John O'Brien
Stand up for PICU R.V.H.
Post Reply