Amateur Rugby In Ireland

[UlsterNo9]

Article penned by David Corkery ex Ireland International

Amateur rugby in Ireland today.

My mom said, I cannot go into the house to collect my training kit because there is a mouse in the kitchen and that is why I can’t make training tonight”. Quote from an adult player playing in the AIL, and this is not a joke !

Now that the Ulster Bank All Ireland league has kicked off, there are many issues that need fixing if Irish rugby at all levels is to continue making the gains needed to remain at the top table. It is my strong belief that the club game in this country is the very life line that gives the professional game such a solid foundation to build on however, this conveyor belt of players is starting to slow down and is in major need of a radical overhaul. Having numbers available is the key for any club to succeed. It is always possible to improve and fix discrepancies if you have numbers to work with, however the numbers that once existed pre the professional era and the economic crash are now but just a distant memory. Coaching rugby may only be a poor substitute to playing the game however; it is the closest you will ever get in trying to replicate the feeling of camaraderie that most former players crave for. Maybe I am just getting grumpy and cantankerous in my old age yet in spite of this; ever since retiring from playing I have coached various teams in different leagues and the level of commitment and sacrifice offered by the majority of players has diminished to the point where having enough bodies to conduct a worthwhile training session is now viewed as a novelty. The economic climate certainly has a lot to do with the dwindling numbers playing the game today and the rural clubs have suffered the most with emigration hitting them hard. Albeit in saying that the bigger clubs in certain areas are also feeling the pinch with one Irish passport holder emigrating from these shores every thirteen minutes. Whether we like it or not Dublin is now viewed as the strong hold of Irish club rugby with players from all four corners of the country having to relocate to the leafy suburbs of D4 in their quest for work. The other rugby benefactor of this migration is Leinster’s pro game. Having so many amateur clubs playing top-flight rugby offers their academy a perfect breeding ground to nurture the next wave of professional stars. If someone suggested to me three years ago that the mighty Shannon and Garryowen of Limerick would be plying their trade in the second division of Irish club rugby and that Dublin would have six teams competing in the first division, I would have had them admitted to a place with no windows and padded walls. Page 2 of 4Lone gone are the days of Tuesday and Thursday night training sessions where players would have to fight for a spot to change in the dressing room. Any club who can now field three adult teams on any given weekend are amongst a very rare and privileged group. The swarms of players that once existed in the past are simply not there anymore and with everyone now fishing from the banks of an ever-reducing player reservoir, club officials and coaches are reduced to begging players to stay or switch allegiance in the off season scramble. Setting to one side all the contributory factors that have fuelled the reduction of numbers in the club game, there is another upheaval that is making it harder and harder for clubs and coaches to deal with. There are two key elements that need to be present for any team in any sport to be successful, commitment and sacrifice. Perhaps the most frustrating element of coaching today is the lack of dedication shown by some of the players, which brings us back to the start of this article. There now exists a culture where players would rather watch a champion’s league game on television rather than come training. Over the last ten years I’ve often found myself on the training paddock with nothing more than a hand full of players trying to prepare for a game on the weekend. Please excuse the crudeness of the expression but we would be better off pissing into the wind. Some of the excuses offered up are very genuine but others boarder on the realms of fantasy. Just imagine driving to training and someone telling you that because there is a mouse in their kitchen they can’t make it. I really didn’t know if should laugh or cry. Some of the other excuses I have had consist of: “It’s raining, are we training?” “ I just found out that its’ my parents wedding anniversary and we are going for dinner” “ My girlfriend has to mind the dog and I need to be with her just in case” “ I split my boots last week and forgot to get a new pair” “ You didn’t pick me last week so why should I train this week?” I could go on and on but is there any need! Page 3 of 4In the ideal world the easiest option would be to not pick players if they didn’t train but because of the diminutive numbers available it is simply not feasible, so coaches find themselves stuck between a rock and a hard place. In saying all this it would be wrong to tarnish all players with the same brush because there are the ones who do make the sacrifices and are committed to the cause. They are noticeable because they are usually the ones who succeed. A coaches’ job is to plan, prepare and improve the players at their disposal to the best of his or hers ability but as I stated already “with nothing you can do nothing”. The youth of today must realise the days of the easy ride is gone and that they will only get out of life what they put into it. This goes for everything both on and off the field. Hard work equals reward and they must never forget this.

[Kofi Annan]

The Clubs also have to take some responsibility as do the provincial domestic bodies, what exactly is Shane doing to help the clubs, community participation numbers is grand to help get funding from DCAL but whats the plans to help clubs, still trying to figure out how a £25K gym in Ballybeen will help CI or Civil Service etc.

Club rugby is dying on its feet some clubs have brought it on themselves by poor management and spending income foolishly. BUT the governing body (UR) have to help.

How many clubs have a thriving mini section but no youth teams at all, go to Quins, Cooke, Ci on a Saturday/Sunday morning lots of kids playing rugby (GREAT) lots of mums and Dads running around with the best of kit sipping coffee backstabbing old school chums etc, BUT what do these mini sections give back to the clubs , Do the parents attend Snr games do they even pay membership? Does the mini section fully support the club ?
The clubs should also be doing more to to encourage these sections to part of the club family.

Maybe a club should spend more money on a club Manager to develop the club and less on players and foreign coaches on the gravy train.

[Aird]

One of the problems with the lack of youth teams is the numbers of Minis going on to Rugby playing schools that refuse to allow pupils to play club rugby.

I know that many of these schools refuse to let their nominal 3rd XV players play for the local clubs yet they do not provide regular fixtures for these pupils.
I am well aware that they may not be potential Ireland / Ulster players but the clubs still need players to fulfil their Minor League Fixtures and if the 3rd XV players enjoy the club scene they could well influence other potentially better players to join as Adults.
Also the attitude of the branch at times towards U20 rugby when they insisted at one point that all games should be played on a Saturday didn't help. Many young players week end jobs and were not available and some were already playing for club teams but would have been happy to double up on a Mid week evening game.
Neither was the attitude of some "senior" clubs who recruited / registered squads of 50 odd players with promises that they were blatantly not going to be able to fulfill.
This left these players frustrated and in many cases lost to the club scene.

[BaggyTrousers]

As a "big-time" slut, I have no recent experience of how clubs & the amateur game operates these days but I hear what Kofi is saying & believe every word.

More than that I cannot say other than that its appears pretty obvious that if all the layers on which the pro game sits atop vanish, there is only one thing that will happen in the longer term, the whole bloody house will fall down.

[bazzaj]

I agree with all this perhaps years ago when club rugby was the bedrock of inter pro and international rugby.
International players were playing for Ireland one week and for the clubs the very next and club form was a basis for selection to the provencial set ups.

Now it is a very different climate.
Clubs are being bypassed as young players are being identified at schools level and fast tracked into provencial sides via academy set ups or if good enough directly in the squad system.
We now have a situation where Matt O`Connor at Leinster does not believe professionalism and amateurism should mix at any level.

I am not saying this is right by any stretch this but simply posing the questions:
What relevance does amateur club have and if was to disappear overnight would it have any impact on the professional game?

[UlsterNo9]

I hear what you are saying Bagster but not sure if the house will fall down and believe the IRFU and its branches know it.... my reasoning.

I don't necessarily agree AIL or the club game is the heartbeat / foundations of professional rugby - if it was it's not anymore.

The foundations of professional rugby in Ulster is schools rugby & underage inter pros & Irish schools / 19 / U20s. This is where players enter the pro set up - it's almost non existent a player will now be picked up playing in the AIL. Believe the current exception is Stu McCloskey? I believe the IRFU and it's respective branches are now very focused on the professional game, the only way thery will put concerted effort and funds into the adult amateur game is if it were a breeding ground for future professional players. I do not believe the return of one Stuart McCloskey per generation would justify in their eyes their investment.

By the time a player hits adult amateur rugby and is not good enough for the professional game he is surplus / dead to the Ulster branch.

Back in the day when Ulster was amateur you supported you local club 1st and Ulster 2nd, this has been flipped on it's head with a decent percentage of season ticket holders having no affiliation with their local club. It sickens me to arrive at an Ulster game with an afternoon kick off on a Saturday to witness 18 - 35 year old fit and able men watching rugby rather than on the pitch.

Agree with everything Kofi says, he echos the sentiments of every rugby man that considers himself a "club man" in the province of Ulster and further afield.

[BuckRogers]

http://m.independent.ie/sport/rugby/oth ... 84746.html

This weekend across the country the opening round of the Ulster Bank League - still known to most as the AIL - got underway. It never takes too long for this competition to change shape in some form. Sometimes it has been for the good, and this season there are probably more people in favour of the return to the top four play-offs. Over the years, however, no matter what limb has been added or lopped off, the idea has become further entrenched higher up the clubs' food chain that for the IRFU this is an exercise in containment.

The latest instance of this comes in new regulations regarding payments to players. You'll remember that when the game went professional in 1995 it caught many north of the equator with their drawers down. Closer to home that state of undress was more buck naked than missing your keks.

In the days of amateurism the Scots and ourselves were the most devout pursuers of that losing cause, which is not to say that there weren't sinners in these parts. Rather, business in Irish club rugby was done below the line. Typically inducements involved jobs or cars, or, if you were very lucky, both.

Once the game went professional at the elite end of the market the IRFU reckoned it made no sense to legislate for it being something different at the butt end, and so money started filtering onto the table rather than underneath it.


This was something the union found distasteful, but they had little choice. By then the AIL, after a whole heap of procrastination on the part of the clubs, was six years formed, and had turbo-charged the game in Ireland. Suddenly clubs who met rarely, or not at all, simply because they were in different provinces, were not just playing each other but competing for points in Ireland's first national league. The rugby was often risk-free and not great for skill development, but mostly it was intense and compelling.

It attracted sponsors and supporters and acres of press coverage. There was money splashing about the place. It took a while for the locals, and not just antipodean imports, to get wet, and, hey presto, they liked the feel of it. The issue of payments to players, and indeed the amount spent on running rugby in any club, was never far off the agenda. When the madness of the Celtic Tiger was replaced by the horrible hangover of the recession it moved higher up that to-do list.

The momentum initially came from former international Fergus Slattery three years ago when he started a campaign to have the money taken out of the game. He lobbied the IRFU, who set up a sub-committee, the Fair Play working party, and against a backdrop of €25m accumulated debt across 206 clubs affiliated to the union, you could see where this was going. Nobody established a link between that debt and the payments to players, however. Did anyone go out of business because of bungs?

Sure enough the destination was in this current legislation to preclude payments to players, other than for vouched expenses directly related to training or playing. Interestingly the three men most readily associated with the journey - Slattery (Blackrock), Billy Glynn (Galwegians) and Ian McIlrath (Ballymena) - are from clubs that have been outside the top flight since 2012, 2008 and 2009 respectively. Glynn, who was president of the union in 2012/'13, conducted a tour of the country during his year of office to test the water. For many, he says, they reckoned the product had been polluted, and wanted it cleansed.

"I spoke to a lot of people who had great enthusiasm for bringing the matter under control," he said last week. "I'm an advocate of no payment to players and instead to divert that money into coaching and fitness and making coaching a viable employment opportunity in Ireland. People said they didn't have the money for coaches, but they did for players."

Glynn's ideal is picture perfect, albeit not on Planet Earth. The practice of incentivising players goes back at least to the late 1970s. All that has changed is the currency. The advent of the AIL in 1990 shifted it up a gear, and for a while it got out of control. What we have had in the last few seasons, however, is a small group of clubs around the country who are run well enough financially to sustain payments to players, whether that money comes from within the club itself or from an outside source from whom the cash is, unfortunately, freed up only for recruitment. Ask the same man for a few bob to fix the cistern in the jacks in the away dressing-room and he will probably keep on walking. Point out a potential recruit from that same dressing-room and he stops to listen.

There isn't a club treasurer in the country who wants it this way. Typically at the height of the good times players in the top division were being paid €50 per match point. So, with a win bonus you trousered €250. If you had been bunged in the first place to sign for the club - and lots were, for sums allegedly ranging from €1,000 to €10,000 - then it was all gravy.

In May of this year IRFU chief executive Philip Browne wrote to the clubs sketching the shape of the new landscape.

"Clubs are reminded that they should not engage in any arrangements or contractual agreements which will prevent them from complying with these regulations," Browne wrote. "This applies to players moving from school to club and from club to club transfers. Any breaches of this regulation will result in the player, club or relevant person being subject to the appropriate sanction or penalties, which can include but is not limited to a fine, suspension from the game, expulsion of the team from the league and/or deduction of league points."

Heavy stuff. The exact weight of it depends on the political will in Lansdowne Road to carry out a plan hatched by a few, but recognised by many as being optical. Will the watchdogs, for example, descend on a club and compel the secretary and chairman of rugby to account for their actions? Will players be asked to sign affidavits when they declare they have not been paid? Eh, we think not, because the banks are already doing the union's work for them: those who can't pay won't be given a chequebook. And how much will it cost to run the Club Affairs Committee who will oversee the legislation? When the nuts and bolts of this were being put in place someone suggested that €300k would be an appropriate figure to give the watchdog some bite to match its bark. You can imagine how that went down.

We suspect there are enough people in Lansdowne Road who realise that this is a waste of time and energy and probably money, depending on how much the union is prepared to spend on the irony of trying to stop the clubs from spending. Also there is a realisation that those beating the drums of prohibition are driven by the fact that they are not at the top table. It's like a bunch of folks looking in the window on a cold night at others around the fire. They have no interest in warming their hands. Rather they'd like the fire put out and the others to join them outside, thanks very much.

If the IRFU want to do something useful for the club game then let those who are happy to chill in the provinces do just that, and those who want to be a part of a level of rugby with some relevance to the pro game do their own thing. Moreover they could look at the lopsided playing pitch that obtains now in the game of player retention and recruitment. For example, you nurture a player through minis and youths, battling to keep him onside despite the oppressive and often arrogant presence of his school, and with the finish line in sight a university waves a sports scholarship under his nose. And the union rules preclude you from responding? Where is the fairness in that? The fight for horseflesh is with the colts.

We wouldn't be putting the Scots forward as the ideal template in rugby, but even they are planning a semi-pro club league to support the professional game in 2015/'16. Meantime in Ireland a witch hunt is about to get underway. The quality of rugby on offer now in our club game has never been higher. Don't tear the backside out of it to appease those who are not able to keep up.

Sunday Indo Sport

[BuckRogers]

I agree with all this perhaps years ago when club rugby was the bedrock of inter pro and international rugby.
International players were playing for Ireland one week and for the clubs the very next and club form was a basis for selection to the provencial set ups.

Now it is a very different climate.
Clubs are being bypassed as young players are being identified at schools level and fast tracked into provencial sides via academy set ups or if good enough directly in the squad system.

We now have a situation where Matt O`Connor at Leinster does not believe professionalism and amateurism should mix at any level.

I am not saying this is right by any stretch this but simply posing the questions:

What relevance does amateur club have and if was to disappear overnight would it have any impact on the professional game?

The same Matt O'Connor who fast tracked Clontarfs leading try scorer into the Leinster set up in the off season?

The club game is, actually, of huge importance to the pro game in Ireland and you don't have to dig down very deep to see the necessity that even Ulster, to use an isolated example, have benefitted from the AIL.

Gilroy (Bangor/Gannon), Trimble (Ballymena), Bowe (Queens then Quins) Cave (Quins) Olding (Quins) Marshall (Bmena) Jackson (Gannon) Henry (Mena/Malone) Henderson (Queens) and just about any of our other players have benefitted from cutting their teeth in the AIL.

Without these clubs where would these guys play rugby? Without junior clubs where would kids start to learn the game? At school at 11?

My other article attached provides an interesting insight as well IMO.

[Kofi Annan]

I hear what you are saying Bagster but not sure if the house will fall down and believe the IRFU and its branches know it.... my reasoning.

I don't necessarily agree AIL or the club game is the heartbeat / foundations of professional rugby - if it was it's not anymore.

The foundations of professional rugby in Ulster is schools rugby & underage inter pros & Irish schools / 19 / U20s. This is where players enter the pro set up - it's almost non existent a player will now be picked up playing in the AIL. Believe the current exception is Stu McCloskey? I believe the IRFU and it's respective branches are now very focused on the professional game, the only way thery will put concerted effort and funds into the adult amateur game is if it were a breeding ground for future professional players. I do not believe the return of one Stuart McCloskey per generation would justify in their eyes their investment.

By the time a player hits adult amateur rugby and is not good enough for the professional game he is surplus / dead to the Ulster branch.

Back in the day when Ulster was amateur you supported you local club 1st and Ulster 2nd, this has been flipped on it's head with a decent percentage of season ticket holders having no affiliation with their local club. It sickens me to arrive at an Ulster game with an afternoon kick off on a Saturday to witness 18 - 35 year old fit and able men watching rugby rather than on the pitch.

Agree with everything Kofi says, he echos the sentiments of every rugby man that considers himself a "club man" in the province of Ulster and further afield.

Gee thanks UN9

[Kofi Annan]

Others may know better (Gary) but do soccer clubs here get a cash payment if a player who came through their youth structures get a pro contract or senior national cap?

[UlsterNo9]

The club game is, actually, of huge importance to the pro game in Ireland and you don't have to dig down very deep to see the necessity that even Ulster, to use an isolated example, have benefitted from the AIL.

Okay so Ulster branch need 4 club 1st XVs playing in Division 1A or 1B of the AIL who they have identified and put on academy or development contracts, players which were identified at age grade and are already in the system... I think they'll manage.

Got another great idea, they could enforce these contracted players to play for these clubs in 1A or 1B who they have no previous affiliation with rather than turning out for their home town clubs..... oh wait.... that's already happening

What about the 2nd XV, 3rd XV, 4th XV?

One of the problems with the lack of youth teams is the numbers of Minis going on to Rugby playing schools that refuse to allow pupils to play club rugby.

There is mileage in what you are saying Aird but I watch parents drop off and pick up their kids at my home club and never get out of the car, doesn't matter what you do to welcome them through the doors. Mini rugby is a great free crèche facility, a facility which is not required at youth age. Not every child in Ulster goes on to a rugby playing school!

[BuckRogers]

The club game is, actually, of huge importance to the pro game in Ireland and you don't have to dig down very deep to see the necessity that even Ulster, to use an isolated example, have benefitted from the AIL.

Okay so Ulster branch need 4 club 1st XVs playing in Division 1A or 1B of the AIL who they have identified and put on academy or development contracts, players which were identified at age grade and are already in the system... I think they'll manage.

Got another great idea, they could enforce these contracted players to play for these clubs in 1A or 1B who they have no previous affiliation with rather than turning out for their home town clubs..... oh wait.... that's already happening

What about the 2nd XV, 3rd XV, 4th XV?
l!

Sorry just who are these players that are being 'enforced' to join 1A/1B teams that aren't their home town clubs? Please some names.

I suspect if you knew your Brennan from your elbow you'd know that issuing a diktat as to where young players go is nowhere near as prevalent as it was when, for one example, Henry was sent to Ballymena when he would clearly have preferred playing at Malone. Advice is certainly given but I cannot think of one player 'enforced' to go anywhere. Indeed I know of several examples of players requesting to go to clubs they have more affinity with.

As the branch discovered notably with Hairyqueens, when they loaded them with fringe ulster players, you can't create a club ethos that actually attracts players not being paid by the club/UR. You have too many people who don't give a brad pitt about the place and are only there because they aren't quite good enough or ready for Ulster. Ballymena suffered a similar fate for a while where they became heavily reliant on fringe Ulster players to subsidise a lack of local talent.

Gone are the days when Quins, mena and gannon had their pick of the ulster players.

I remember heading to Dublin to watch a Ballymena team including Jimmy and Derek Topping, Neil McMillan, Gary Longwell, Adam Larkin and a few others feature in the AIL final as well as a Dungannon side featuring Humphreys, Howe, Cunningham around a similar time in the early noughties.


Dungannon are admittedly struggling to field three teams these days I believe but they were always going to be the big losers of the citification of today's yoof moving to Belfast for Uni. Derry also struggle for top-level players due to their location but again that is not to be unexpected.

Country teams like Armagh and Banbridge seem to hold their own for decent quality players, indeed Ian Porter formerly of this parish now in Connacht, played the last two seasons for Banbridge and picked himself up a professional deal.

The only team that Ulster 'have' in 1A is Ballynahinch and the last time I checked they were chirping about fielding 7 senior teams so presumably aren't struggling for numbers. I also note they had a whole five Ulster players playing, four of whom are on development deals. McCall and Simpson have played there since leaving school.

Ulster need as many senior clubs as they can muster as it ultimately strengthens the USL which increases the league and cup competitiveness which in turn helps clubs perform at a higher level in the AIL.

Out of interest aside from having a go at my post what exactly was your point?

[Kofi Annan]

Not a Hinch fan, but they really do appear to be one of the best organised clubs in Ulster and some could learn from them.

[Russ]

Hinch are a horrible club

[Kofi Annan]

Hinch are a horrible club

Russ, yes that may be so and on match days a lot of their fans are a tad horrible, but they do have a community club and the majority of members get involved.