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Neutral Referees

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Re: Neutral Referees

Postby Snipe Watson » Sun May 28, 2017 9:00 pm

rumncoke wrote:simplicity and fairness should rule

forget theories if a ball is caught in front of where the pass was made its forward simple .

The ball is meant to be passed backwards not laterally ie with a turn of the body rather than a flick of the hands .


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Yup, that's how generations have been taught to pass, but in the real world, it's not easy to synchronise your stride pattern with the optimum moment to deliver a pass and so the hands become the dominant factor.
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Re: Neutral Referees

Postby Cap'n Grumpy » Sun May 28, 2017 9:19 pm

Snipe Watson wrote:
Cap'n Grumpy wrote:I understand all that theory Snipe.

Consider this: If a train is going at 100mph in one direction, and a fly is flying at 5mph in the opposite direction and they collide, does the train stop due to the impact?

Logic says, of course not. Physics says yes. As the fly flattens across the front of the train, it goes from 5mph in one direction, to -100mph (i.e. in the opposite direction). To do so, there must be an instant when it is at zero mph before its vector changes. Ergo, as it is in contact with the train, the train must also be doing zero mph (for an instant). You may say it is a gradual process as different parts of the fly squish on the front of the train, but any part of the fly at some time must go from 5mph to -100mph, passing through zero mph at some stage, and with that, also the train. Simples! :thumleft:

Theory is all well and good, but when it comes to rugby, if a player passes the ball backwards, then that is what imparts the major momentum to the ball, not the forward momentum of the player. In general their forward speed is what? For rugby players, 10-15mph tops? The speed of the pass is much more than that. The only major factor which could influence the ball going forward is wind, which if strong enough could carry it forward, or if it goes to ground after initially going backwards, it may bounce forward, but that does not constitute a forward pass. :lol:

No, not explained to my satisfaction as you have unsurprisingly wandered into the realm of fantasy. :roll: :roll:
The ball travels in a complex arc, not a straight line. Gravity, wind, momentum (moving forward as well as side to side) and so on all have an impact on it's flight. But the single most important factor is the release angle, whether the player released the ball backwards or forwards.
The disparity between the train and the fly renders your nice story a horse biscuit of an analogy. Even I know that everything has an equal and opposite effect. The impact of the fly may be infinitesimal, but it is actual and theoretically measurable. 470,000,000,000,000,000 flies would stop the bloomin train. >seeya

Sorry, did I mention a fly?

I meant to use a moth in the analogy ............ and see how many came to the flame :lol:
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Re: Neutral Referees

Postby rumncoke » Sun May 28, 2017 9:53 pm

Basically Baggy has the truth of the matter which is the the game is sold on trys being score by players running flat out .

disallowed trys based on video evidence doesn't sell tickets .

But how often during the season do refs respond to a crowd shout of forward with an instant whistle
quite a few times I 'm sure and their is no instant replay to show the pass was good under the current rules of physics as applied .

The law as now being applied will always result in differences of opinion and referees being open to accusations .

simpicity says forward is any point, in front of the place where the pass was made.




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Re: Neutral Referees

Postby rumncoke » Sun May 28, 2017 9:58 pm

While Nigel may not have been at his unbiased best the fact remains the best Team on the day won even it was with a little help from their friend
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Re: Neutral Referees

Postby Cap'n Grumpy » Sun May 28, 2017 11:08 pm

I heard it said by a refereeing official that Nigel is considered (one of) the best in the world, not because he gets the most decisions right - he doesn't - but because he referees the games in such a way that brings the most excitement, and that the fans and players forgive him his inaccuracy because of that.

It's also said that most referees are (or should be) happy to be not mentioned in match reports (other than "the match referee was ....), but that Nigel courts press attention and wants to be mentioned as much as the players, if not more. Having seen and spoken to him pre and post match at close quarters, he certainly appears willing to engage with the supporters and be part of the whole match experience.
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Re: Neutral Referees

Postby BaggyTrousers » Sun May 28, 2017 11:33 pm

rumncoke wrote:Basically Baggy has the truth of the matter which is the the game is sold on trys being score by players running flat out .

disallowed trys based on video evidence doesn't sell tickets .

But how often during the season do refs respond to a crowd shout of forward with an instant whistle
quite a few times I 'm sure and their is no instant replay to show the pass was good under the current rules of physics as applied .

The law as now being applied will always result in differences of opinion and referees being open to accusations .

simpicity says forward is any point, in front of the place where the pass was made.



Not just simplicity Ron'n, fact, logic and a myriad of other sensible things.
Support the team and coaching staff. Forget the rest,BUT NEVER MOVE ON.

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Re: Neutral Referees

Postby BaggyTrousers » Sun May 28, 2017 11:43 pm

Cap'n Grumpy wrote:I heard it said by a refereeing official that Nigel is considered (one of) the best in the world, not because he gets the most decisions right - he doesn't - but because he referees the games in such a way that brings the most excitement, and that the fans and players forgive him his inaccuracy because of that.

It's also said that most referees are (or should be) happy to be not mentioned in match reports (other than "the match referee was ....), but that Nigel courts press attention and wants to be mentioned as much as the players, if not more. Having seen and spoken to him pre and post match at close quarters, he certainly appears willing to engage with the supporters and be part of the whole match experience.


That sums Nigel up exactly Grumps, in general, he is excellent, however, I do think that as his reputation has grown he has become a prisoner of his own legend and too often "knows best" when ignoring his fellow officials. They are supposed to act as a team, Nigel knows there is no I in "team".

I'd just point out that I accept every ref can have a bad day, even on the biggest of days. My point here is that he should not have been put in a position where his impartiality could be brought into question. After all the old joke goes that he has done 6 HC/SDC finals because there is never a Welsh team in it.

Bad appointment.
Support the team and coaching staff. Forget the rest,BUT NEVER MOVE ON.

FIRFU - FU'CK YOU ONE AND ALL, CAVING IN TO SPONSORS, SACKING THE INNOCENT FOR A FEW DOLLARS MORE, SHAMEFUL BASTA'RDS. YOU'VE LOST MY SUPPORT & I HOPE MORE ULSTERMEN & WOMEN
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Re: Neutral Referees

Postby Snipe Watson » Mon May 29, 2017 10:10 am

Cap'n Grumpy wrote:
Snipe Watson wrote:
Cap'n Grumpy wrote:I understand all that theory Snipe.

Consider this: If a train is going at 100mph in one direction, and a fly is flying at 5mph in the opposite direction and they collide, does the train stop due to the impact?

Logic says, of course not. Physics says yes. As the fly flattens across the front of the train, it goes from 5mph in one direction, to -100mph (i.e. in the opposite direction). To do so, there must be an instant when it is at zero mph before its vector changes. Ergo, as it is in contact with the train, the train must also be doing zero mph (for an instant). You may say it is a gradual process as different parts of the fly squish on the front of the train, but any part of the fly at some time must go from 5mph to -100mph, passing through zero mph at some stage, and with that, also the train. Simples! :thumleft:

Theory is all well and good, but when it comes to rugby, if a player passes the ball backwards, then that is what imparts the major momentum to the ball, not the forward momentum of the player. In general their forward speed is what? For rugby players, 10-15mph tops? The speed of the pass is much more than that. The only major factor which could influence the ball going forward is wind, which if strong enough could carry it forward, or if it goes to ground after initially going backwards, it may bounce forward, but that does not constitute a forward pass. :lol:

No, not explained to my satisfaction as you have unsurprisingly wandered into the realm of fantasy. :roll: :roll:
The ball travels in a complex arc, not a straight line. Gravity, wind, momentum (moving forward as well as side to side) and so on all have an impact on it's flight. But the single most important factor is the release angle, whether the player released the ball backwards or forwards.
The disparity between the train and the fly renders your nice story a horse biscuit of an analogy. Even I know that everything has an equal and opposite effect. The impact of the fly may be infinitesimal, but it is actual and theoretically measurable. 470,000,000,000,000,000 flies would stop the bloomin train. >seeya

Sorry, did I mention a fly?

I meant to use a moth in the analogy ............ and see how many came to the flame :lol:

Nice try, but no cigar. :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Neutral Referees

Postby Aird » Mon May 29, 2017 9:32 pm

Agreed Baggy bad appointment, there should have been totally Nuetral team of officials for the final.
Of course this once again comes back to lack of Scots and Italian official who have the necessary ability.

Nuetral officials would do away with any perception of favouritism that the fans may have whether this is true or not. I agree that this is not fair on the officials either.
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Re: Neutral Referees

Postby againstthehead » Tue May 30, 2017 12:34 am

Snipe Watson wrote:Reverting to the old law would suit us as we don't come onto the ball with pace anyway.
We're so slow that even our forward passes are backward, especially when we get driven back in the tackle.


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Re: Neutral Referees

Postby BaggyTrousers » Tue May 30, 2017 12:48 am

Snipe Watson wrote:
rumncoke wrote:simplicity and fairness should rule

forget theories if a ball is caught in front of where the pass was made its forward simple .

The ball is meant to be passed backwards not laterally ie with a turn of the body rather than a flick of the hands .


Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk

Yup, that's how generations have been taught to pass, but in the real world, it's not easy to synchronise your stride pattern with the optimum moment to deliver a pass and so the hands become the dominant factor.


Yeah yeah yeah, all well and good you lads pontificating but the simple fact is that the pass for the third try was so far forward that the physics of player speed x direction of hands x the inside leg of NIgel is a load of apologists bullshite, the fuc'king ball when an extraordinary distance forward.

No other ref - that's, NO OTHER REF IN THE WORLD would have decided that was not a forward pass. Nigel is not a cheat, though he is a sucker for being seen to be decisive, I believe he 100% believes he was right, which shows just how wrong his appointment was.
Support the team and coaching staff. Forget the rest,BUT NEVER MOVE ON.

FIRFU - FU'CK YOU ONE AND ALL, CAVING IN TO SPONSORS, SACKING THE INNOCENT FOR A FEW DOLLARS MORE, SHAMEFUL BASTA'RDS. YOU'VE LOST MY SUPPORT & I HOPE MORE ULSTERMEN & WOMEN
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Re: Neutral Referees

Postby mid ulster maestro » Tue May 30, 2017 8:06 am

I think the fly landed in your ointment before it hit the train. Agreed the fly at some point on it's journey into oblivion has zero velocity but the train doesn't. The fly is undergoing a rapid and violent change of direction and thus has to be stationary at the point where the change of direction occurs. The train however rumbles on. I wonder what went through the flies mind when the train it? Oh yes, it's ar$e. This hypothysis then begs the question, did the fly hit the train of did the train hit the fly?
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Re: Neutral Referees

Postby Spiffsson » Wed May 31, 2017 2:06 am

Has all this anything to do with not using the jakes when a train is standing stationary at a station? And what are the dynamics of a turd flushed at 60 mph?
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