Wales in 'not actually that great' shocker!!

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Bart S
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Re: Wales in 'not actually that great' shocker!!

Post by Bart S »

darkside lightside wrote:
brianc wrote:My "beef" with your argument is the obsession with manufacturing stats which show that DK is somehow to blame for all this, your last table is a good case in point.
Brian - I think there's a misconception though, that I am consumed with hatred of DK and go all out to try to discredit him etc etc. I am not.
D/L - Have you stopped to think why this "misconception" exists then, given that we only know your opinions on Ireland/DK through your postings on here? If Ireland were to win (and win well) this weekend, I can already see you saying that either England were terrible or that if it wasn't for DK we would have won a grand slam this year. Either way, I can't see you positing anything positive about ireland or in particular DK, regardless of the result. Now you may think I am being harsh on you here but to be honest, that's the way your postings come across sometimes.

As someone (Brian C I think?) said, many of us are not happy with some of the things around the Ireland team (tactics, selection on occasions) and Kidney should absolutely be accountable for that. However, similarly, there are things he has done well and deserves some credit for. With you, (rightly or wrongly) it comes across only one way and results in people like me feeling the need to defend Kidney more than I ordinarily would.

If I compare another poster who is not DK's biggest fan (Jackie Brown stand up!), he makes his point then moves onGives Ireland credit when things go well and stick when they don't, which is fair enough.

Should Ireland have won more over the past decade? Yes, probably and I think we are all disappointed with only 1 GS/championship during that period. Too many 2nd places, (which is still not bad compared to our international history overall).

Would a better coach have won more? Possibly, although I think the idea that we would have dominated the tournament over this period with any coach is simply not true. Not many people would criticise DK's handling of the 2009 GS winning side yet even that team had close matches against Eng and Sco IIRC, not to mention being a kick away from getting beaten in Cardiff. Why?? Because all the talk of the "golden generation" ignores the fact that the other memebrs of our XV were often distinctly average. In our GS matchday winning 22 we had TOL, Stringer, Horgan, Hayes, MOD, Court, DOC, P Wallace. That's more than 1/3 of the GS playing squad. Now no offence to any of them (indeed some great servants in there) but no-one would have them anywhere near their all time Irish XV's and most would have struggled to even make the other team's squads in 2009.

Finally, the whole successful club thing. Yes I can see the logic, but there's always more to it than meets the eye. Look at England's football for example compared to the success of Man U, Liverpool, Chelsea and Arsenal in the Champions League for a number of seasons. The gap is Partly explained by foreigners of course but also as above, the fact that some of the team members required to fill the team were not top level, despite the presence of Rooney, Gerrard, Scholes, Lampard etc. (eg no decent goalie for years).

In Ireland's case we also have to remember that the entire starting XV's during the glory period have virtually come from 2 provinces. It's been more spread out in England and Wales in particular, and even some of the Welsh guys have been playing in england or france, so it's not just 1 or 2 welsh clubs providing all the players. If your entire international team is coming from 2 teams then of course they are more likely to be successful, particularly when there isn't much between these teams at international level.

Finally, it's not just Ireland which fails to translate club success into 6 Nations success. Over the past decade, only once has the same country won the 6 Nations and Heineken Cup in the same year (2009 with Ireland and Leinster incidentally).

Anyway, now that I have joined the long and winding posts club I feel better! However as Baggy says, I do firmly believe that you are passionate about Ireland and want them to do well, as we all do...it's just that sometimes it comes across in a more negative fashion that you intend it to do so.
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BaggyTrousers
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Re: Wales in 'not actually that great' shocker!!

Post by BaggyTrousers »

Bart S wrote: Anyway, now that I have joined the long and winding posts club I feel better! However as Baggy says, I do firmly believe that you are passionate about Ireland and want them to do well, as we all do...it's just thatusually it comes across in a more negative fashion that you intend it to do so.
And well worthwhile Bart, eminently sensible as usual. I have taken the liberty of changing one word and hope you aren;t offended, I believe it to be more accurate.

Whilst I stand by what I said earlier which you have alluded to and DL - again - has said he did not read :roll: I know I am not alone in thinking that DL's anti-DK posting doesn't so much come across as negative as like a whiny little bitch stamping her feet again & again & again.

Calm down, clam down, not to worry people, he won't read that either.
NEVER MOVE ON. Years on, I cannot ever watch Ireland with anything but indifference, I continue to wish for the imminent death of Donal Spring, the FIRFUC's executioner of Wee Paddy & Wee Stu, and I hate the FIRFUCs with undiminished passion.
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darkside lightside
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Re: Wales in 'not actually that great' shocker!!

Post by darkside lightside »

BaggyTrousers wrote:I know I am not alone in thinking that DL's anti-DK posting doesn't so much come across as negative as like a whiny little bitch stamping her feet again & again & again.

Calm down, clam down, not to worry people, he won't read that either.
nope that one fell just within the brevity of post that I will be bothered to read - and just confirms what a wise decision it is not to bother with anything longer! :thumleft:
[The Artist Formerly Known as Caolan]

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darkside lightside
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Re: Wales in 'not actually that great' shocker!!

Post by darkside lightside »

Bart, I say misconception, because it is a misconception – if you go back to after one of Ireland’s good performances, you will find that I don’t try to twist it into a criticism of Kidney – the point, and the elephant in the room, is that these have been vanishingly few and far between! A preponderance of criticism of Kidney is due to a preponderance of sub-par performances and results.

What really frustrates me is the neverland inhabited by the Irish press on the matter – most of the flagship journalists are (a) poor analysts of rugby full stop and (b) completely in hock to the coach du jour; and most of the ex-player pundits are basically random cliché-generators. Who is asking any searching questions about selection, tactics, coaching, results? Where was the coruscating, scathing criticism of the IRFU’s braindead pre-RWC contract extensions? We get the opposite of what I’m being accused of – in that a huge amount of effort goes into twisting events in such a way as to justify or favour the status quo. So maybe this place is my only outlet.

Re the clubs, I don’t see the relevance of the point that for some time most of the Ireland team came from just 2 provinces – what is relevant is that those two provinces were very strong and successful. And I distinctly remember in the not too distant past (it may even have been in the 2005 GS year), Wales were basically the Ospreys plus Martyn Williams and Tom Shanklin. And Toulouse have provided the spine of the French team for quite a while (incidentally Toulouse won the HEC in ’10 and France won the championship). And so it is today, Leinster provide a stack of the Ireland team, which is right and proper, given that Leinster are arguably the best side in Europe!

If you look at 6N winners side by side with HEC winners – between 2003-06 French teams were dominant, and France won the championship twice, and if you remember the year that they didn’t, 2005, was that kind of freak run that Wales went on – the only match France lost was that one where Wales looked dead and buried at half-time, but then France conspired to throw it away in the second half. And the couple of years before that back to 2000, English clubs dominated and guess what, England won 3 championships from 4… It’s not an automatic thing obviously, but all things being equal if the ‘nurseries’ from which you select your side are stronger than those from which other teams select their’s, I can’t fathom how that isn’t advantageous.

Anyway, welcome to the long and winding post club. :D You’re right I am passionate about Ireland, which is why I find it so painful to watch them going in the wrong direction..
[The Artist Formerly Known as Caolan]

On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero - Tyler Durden
bazzaj

Re: Wales in 'not actually that great' shocker!!

Post by bazzaj »

I feel that over the years the fact that we are picking from mainly 2 provences has positive and negative points.
The positive is the quality of player exposed regularly to the highest level of European rugby and the majority the squad is familiar with one another.
The main negative is that Leinster and Munster have always played two completely different styles of play and one player does not look comfortable playing the other teams style.
With a Munster coach its obvious we are playing a Munster style which explains why some of the Leinster players do not replicate their club form at international level as they stuggle to adapt their game.
It used to be the right style of play when we had the munster pack and half backs but now the balance of european power has shifted to leinster we should be looking to play their game.
Recently we have looked to play a higher tempo game and Reddan was flashing the ball out to increase the tempo.
Of course his selection was due to injury but all the clues are there for DK.
I only hope he watches a repeat of last years corresponding fixture.
I thought that that was the template for our future perfomances instead it appears to be our zenith.
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Re: Wales in 'not actually that great' shocker!!

Post by Liam Williams »

BaggyTrousers wrote:A real 'if your granny had balls' of a thread. Still there appears to some enjoying it.
:D lol. Has to be seen to be believed. :lol:
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Re: Wales in 'not actually that great' shocker!!

Post by BaggyTrousers »

Liam Williams wrote:
BaggyTrousers wrote:A real 'if your granny had balls' of a thread. Still there appears to some enjoying it.
:D lol. Has to be seen to be believed. :lol:
Bejaysus Liam, you pulled that thread out of your Crozier, for a minute I thought poor ould DL was back.
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NEVER MOVE ON. Years on, I cannot ever watch Ireland with anything but indifference, I continue to wish for the imminent death of Donal Spring, the FIRFUC's executioner of Wee Paddy & Wee Stu, and I hate the FIRFUCs with undiminished passion.
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Re: Wales in 'not actually that great' shocker!!

Post by Liam Williams »

darkside lightside wrote:I was thinking over the weekend, how many Wales players would get into Ulster's first team? Here's what I would pick:

1. Jenkins
2. Best
3. Afoa
4. Mueller
5. Tuohy
6. Ferris
7. Warburton
8. Wannenberg
9. Pienaar
10. Priestland
11. North

12. Wallace
13. Roberts
14. Trimble
15. Halfpenny

Closest to breaking in would be Jones at 5, Phillips at 9 (in which case I'd play Pienaar at 10), and Roberts-Davies in the centre. Even making all those changes, just over half the team, and I don't think there'd be much debate about the rest. The point remains, they're definitely a good team, but not an exceptional one - they have ridden their luck big-time against Ireland and England, but Gatland in the last year or so has them playing as more than the sum of their parts.
:stout: Post of the century >clapping >clapping >clapping
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BaggyTrousers
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Re: Wales in 'not actually that great' shocker!!

Post by BaggyTrousers »

Liam Williams wrote:
darkside lightside wrote:I was thinking over the weekend, how many Wales players would get into Ulster's first team? Here's what I would pick:

1. Jenkins
2. Best
3. Afoa
4. Mueller
5. Tuohy
6. Ferris
7. Warburton
8. Wannenberg
9. Pienaar
10. Priestland
11. North

12. Wallace
13. Roberts
14. Trimble
15. Halfpenny

Closest to breaking in would be Jones at 5, Phillips at 9 (in which case I'd play Pienaar at 10), and Roberts-Davies in the centre. Even making all those changes, just over half the team, and I don't think there'd be much debate about the rest. The point remains, they're definitely a good team, but not an exceptional one - they have ridden their luck big-time against Ireland and England, but Gatland in the last year or so has them playing as more than the sum of their parts.
:stout: Post of the century >clapping >clapping >clapping
Don;t get too excited Liam, poor DL was as mad as a bag of cats, had to be put on "gardening leave" before he stank the plce out with his pro-Welsh posting.

I'd have none of them in my Ulster side on principle, the principle being that Welsh folk have no principles and cannot therefore achieve "The Ulster Way".
NEVER MOVE ON. Years on, I cannot ever watch Ireland with anything but indifference, I continue to wish for the imminent death of Donal Spring, the FIRFUC's executioner of Wee Paddy & Wee Stu, and I hate the FIRFUCs with undiminished passion.
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Re: Wales in 'not actually that great' shocker!!

Post by Liam Williams »

:lol: Ospreylian ( Mark Perego ) told me there were some stars on here. He has a special place in his heart for Baggy.
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Re: Wales in 'not actually that great' shocker!!

Post by BaggyTrousers »

This you butty Liam?
Mark Perego (Llanelli)

A real one-off, the ultra-fit flanker was Welsh rugby’s answer to Rambo, with his training routine involving running through mountain rivers, stripped to the waist carrying an axe, which he would use to round off the session with a spot of wood-chopping!
I see he is ranked the 22nd toughest man in Wales**. My granny was the 22nd hardest woman in the Isle of Wight about 100 years ago. Pity they can't have a scrap, she got badly burned about 30 years back, well they don't feck about at the crematorium.

I see "The Duke" ranked at no.1 & no sign of you anywhere Liam, is your pride wounded.

Of course he is a Scaaaaaaaalet, despite the Ospreylian tag, he keeps banging on about Delme Thomas and Co batin' the All Blacks over the head with their sosban fachs in 1972.

I had a Scaaaaalets fan translate the song in a Dublin pub many years back, my advice is only ever sing it in Welsh >EW It was great that Mary Ann's finger got better but I can't help thinking David the servant's death wasn't taken as seriously as it might have been. Real shame about Old Mary Jones, was she Mark's mother? There is a signed picture of Mark hanging in a furniture shop in San Javier. :shock:

Right Liam, I apologise unreservedly for wishing you a swift & painful death, hang around a bit longer, I feel you may have the capacity to be amusing. :salut:


** Mind you I see Grav was rated 15th & he was a real gent, tough but a gent, maybe 22nd hardest man in Wales isn't that serious a "head".
NEVER MOVE ON. Years on, I cannot ever watch Ireland with anything but indifference, I continue to wish for the imminent death of Donal Spring, the FIRFUC's executioner of Wee Paddy & Wee Stu, and I hate the FIRFUCs with undiminished passion.
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Re: Wales in 'not actually that great' shocker!!

Post by Ospreylian »

You know him better than me. True genius. Oddball was right about you :lol:
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Russ
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Re: Wales in 'not actually that great' shocker!!

Post by Russ »

Have welsh women been humped yet?

I do mean on the pitch before off this time

Easterby Out
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Re: Wales in 'not actually that great' shocker!!

Post by BaggyTrousers »

Ospreylian wrote:You know him better than me. True genius. Oddball was right about you :lol:
You know Hitler as well, feckin' amazing.

Did you know that Genralissimo Franco was also a mono-ball? Ironically both he and Corporal Hitler were both shot in the ballix within 6 months of each other in WW I, sadly I don't know if they both lost the same ball or if between them they could have produced a matching pair. :shock:
NEVER MOVE ON. Years on, I cannot ever watch Ireland with anything but indifference, I continue to wish for the imminent death of Donal Spring, the FIRFUC's executioner of Wee Paddy & Wee Stu, and I hate the FIRFUCs with undiminished passion.
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