Argentina v Ireland

[Shan]

Not entirely sure he was needed, and I seem to remember that it was POC himself who was adamant about wanting to go. I think this tour showed that he is not quite the force he once was, though still a top class lock. Whether he can last out and still deliver the goods at the 2015 RWC is another issue. He can still rule the lineout and perform well in the loose about the park. But I wish he would he would ease off in the ball-carrying dept, since (a) he does not make good ground and (b) it is energy sapping.

When I say needed I mean needed by Joe because he wanted his captain on this tour. I am assuming that based on the fact that Joe would have wanted a first series win in Argentina and probably would have felt that some of the inexperienced lads would have been helped by POC on and off the field.

POC may have felt he needed the gametime.


However I wouldn't read too much into a game against under-strength opposition. The 6N is his proving ground.

[Shan]

The problem then becomes, people of the south attach so called ligind status to players

The media jumps on this and makes a big deal of them being played

Case in point, radge.

He was brad pitt for 3 years before finally being sent to the only country who would let him stay in rugby

Hopefully Schmidt is a better man than Kidney and his reign of terror

Anscombe Out

Nonsense. ROG was mostly a substitute for Ireland since 2010. He helped Ireland in their hour of need by being available in case Sexton was injured / not up to it in a given game. It's not his fault that the latter happened more than it should have and not his fault that no other player was good enough before 2013 to accept that mantle of Number 2. The only mistake made was to keep him in situ in 2013 for 2 6N games.

[bazzaj]

Just a reminder Shan, DK started ROG ahead of Sexton against Wales in the 2011 world cup quarters, a game of somewhat Iimportance I am sure you'll agree.
A move which had inevitable consequences
I never got the impression that ROGs presence had the most positive of influences on Sexton whether intentional or not

[Russ]

Just a reminder Shan, DK started ROG ahead of Sexton against Wales in the 2011 world cup quarters, a game of somewhat Iimportance I am sure you'll agree.
A move which had inevitable consequences
I never got the impression that ROGs presence had the most positive of influences on Sexton whether intentional or not

He was, and still is, a little bar steward in the media

Anscombe Out

[Shan]

Just a reminder Shan, DK started ROG ahead of Sexton against Wales in the 2011 world cup quarters, a game of somewhat Iimportance I am sure you'll agree.
A move which had inevitable consequences
I never got the impression that ROGs presence had the most positive of influences on Sexton whether intentional or not

Yes Bazza I do agree it was a match of importance. It didn't have inevitable consequences. ROG had played very well in the previous two games, one granted v Russia but one in an annihilation of Italy. There was every reason to select ROG as he had performed better than Sexton to that point. Hindsight is always a handy thing and if he had switched and selected Sexton instead he may very well have got it in the neck when we lost and people would demand to know why he dropped the better performing 10. It was a form selection.

But ultimately the point stands that ROG was mostly a substitute between 2010-2013, our worst period for years. However we are gaining the benefit of that now as Sexton has developed into a much better and more consistent international than he was. It is that development and learning which is the thing, not some notion that Sexton couldn't perform with ROG around. If it was the latter he should have been brought down to the Liffey and f-cked in with a concrete block tied to each leg. It would be pathetic for any adult to wallow in that type of ballix.



2010-2011: ROG:3 +6Sub, Sexton: 6 +2Sub
2011-2012: ROG:5 +3Sub, Sexton: 12 +4Sub
2012-2013: ROG:0 +4Sub, Sexton: 4

The world Cup skews the number because ROG had 3 starts.

[Shan]

He was, and still is, a little bar steward in the media

The worst thing is you are probably actually old enough to be considered an adult. FFS.

[bazzaj]

Just a reminder Shan, DK started ROG ahead of Sexton against Wales in the 2011 world cup quarters, a game of somewhat Iimportance I am sure you'll agree.
A move which had inevitable consequences
I never got the impression that ROGs presence had the most positive of influences on Sexton whether intentional or not

Yes Bazza I do agree it was a match of importance. It didn't have inevitable consequences. ROG had played very well in the previous two games, one granted v Russia but one in an annihilation of Italy. There was every reason to select ROG as he had performed better than Sexton to that point. Hindsight is always a handy thing and if he had switched and selected Sexton instead he may very well have got it in the neck when we lost and people would demand to know why he dropped the better performing 10. It was a form selection.

But ultimately the point stands that ROG was mostly a substitute between 2010-2013, our worst period for years. However we are gaining the benefit of that now as Sexton has developed into a much better and more consistent international than he was. It is that development and learning which is the thing, not some notion that Sexton couldn't perform with ROG around. If it was the latter he should have been brought down to the Liffey and f-cked in with a concrete block tied to each leg. It would be pathetic for any adult to wallow in that type of ballix.



2010-2011: ROG:3 +6Sub, Sexton: 6 +2Sub
2011-2012: ROG:5 +3Sub, Sexton: 12 +4Sub
2012-2013: ROG:0 +4Sub, Sexton: 4

The world Cup skews the number because ROG had 3 starts.

I can swallow the majority of that shan except for the World Cup.
RoG was always going to struggle against the Welsh power game and if you are bored enough you can trawl through my comments on this board at the time.
Bear in mind Sexton had played in a great defensive performance against Australia as well, preferring ROG must have been a red rag to the Welsh.
No matter what way you look at it Shan it was the wrong call.
Also struggled when he played the French particularly Betson where his pack couldn't protect him he was massively exposed.
Still behind a pack going forward he was pretty much the best controller of a game around.

[Shan]

I can swallow the majority of that shan except for the World Cup.
RoG was always going to struggle against the Welsh power game and if you are bored enough you can trawl through my comments on this board at the time.
Bear in mind Sexton had played in a great defensive performance against Australia as well, preferring ROG must have been a red rag to the Welsh.
No matter what way you look at it Shan it was the wrong call.
Also struggled when he played the French particularly Betson where his pack couldn't protect him he was massively exposed.
Still behind a pack going forward he was pretty much the best controller of a game around.

I didn't say it wasn't the wrong call. I said it was the form selection and that Kidney had every reason to select ROG.

Now I of course will not be ridiculous enough to suggest there was a huge difference in form between the two. Both performed well in the RWC to that point. ROG was steadier and more assured in his performances and therefore in better form but selecting Sexton wouldn't have been on a par with the selection of a woefully out of form, because of injury, Tommy Bowe in the AI's for example.

Essentially though it does demonstrate one of those things I do like to raise from time to time, that form is not the only or even best barometer for selection criteria for International Rugby. We'll see this argument later in the year again and at the 6N and RWC where folk will be arguing the merits of inferior players because of real or perceived better form over the better player. Again though I am not suggesting I agree with continually rolling out the spluttering gas guzzling vintage Bentleys when you have perfectly acceptable, roadworthy and efficient Skoda Octavias sitting in the garage.

[bazzaj]

Joes selection policy isnt just about form or class but who is best for the team.
DKs failing was a if it isn't broken approach selection policy

This is good up until he comes up against coaches who knows whats coming and what to do about it ie Gatland and Edwards

Joes famous attention to detail helps him to make decisions on a game to game basis according to the opposition.
The problem is that he doesn't have a plethera of personnel to pick from but one decision he will make is Hendo over POC if he wants to play at a quick tempo going back to my earlier point.
With SOBs return and Henry's form in his absence that gives Joe another option which he needs more of.

[Shan]

Hi Bazza..... slight apologies for my last post as I think I got on a bit of a roll there and lost the run of myself somewhat.

I hope you are correct that Joe will select as the game demands it as he sees it. He has shown some of that already with the selection of Madigan over Jackson in the last 6N game. While that may have been met with displeasure by many it can easily be argued it was a justified call given the nature of the available players on that day.

Also he showed he is prepared to stick to his guns despite media pressure when he stuck with Kearney over Zebo. Again that selection did not please everybody and could be argued but I don't think it can be argued that he made it for the right reasons.


Now the thing is though that he did select very few starters in the 6N- Just 18 if I remember correctly. Granted it was his first season and first go at the 6N which of course we won so cannot be too critical but it does leave the door slightly ajar in relation to Joe and his attention to detail regarding playing the opposition. Did he get it wrong against England is a question which can be asked.

However I am looking forward with positive anticipation due in large part to Joe so far getting it mostly right. At the very least he seems to be showing that he is not worried about perception which is something to be admired. The most successful people tend not to be the ones who want to try to please everybody. The tend to have too much self belief to get sucked into that game. If the IRFU try to meddle too much I do hope he can face them down.....a classic case of you need me more than I need you would be just the ticket here. As a non-Irishman that should be easier for him to pull off.