Is IRFU truly a beacon of inclusiveness?

[Cú Choileáin]

Hi, I'm a Manchester-based writer, originally from the north-west of Ireland, and I recently wrote a piece on my blog entitled, 'Is Irish rugby truly the beacon of inclusiveness it is purported to be?': https://danieldcollins.wordpress.com/20 ... ted-to-be/

I also had a condensed version published here on Slugger O'Toole: http://sluggerotoole.com/2015/10/23/is- ... ted-to-be/

The first half of the longer blog piece more or less documents some of the debate in the south over whether or not rugby has shed it's elitist baggage in Ireland and the perception that the southern media devotes the sport disproportionate and overly-favourable coverage, especially in comparison to, say, association football.

The second half, however, analyses an issue that isn't given so much exposure down south, probably because it might reveal some difficult truths if it was given anything more than a superficial treatment. I look at the claim that the IRFU/Irish rugby is inclusive of the unionist community and those who identify with Northern Ireland. I perceive there to be a disparity there in terms of symbolic recognition of the two communities or political entities that make up the team; I'm referring to the matter of anthem(s) and flags.

I based my writings on the signals I have been getting from unionists generally and out of a sense of what I perceive to be equitable. Just to give an idea of my own background, I'm a nationalist and was told by a unionist on Twitter that my position was patronising; that many unionist Ulster supporters simply didn't care about this. Is this true? Although surely the present situation of hollow symbolic tokenism is what is patronising? And even if it's something that many don't consider a serious enough matter over which to brew a storm or kick up a fuss, it's undeniable that the disparity still exists, no?

Essentially, I was advocating either using just neutral symbols or giving explicit and exclusive recognition to both (as opposed to how the tricolour was hung at the World Cup with the sub-national Ulster provincial flag and 'Amhán na bhFiann' is played when the team play in Dublin, although no equivalent is played in Ravenhill, which was designated an "away" ground by the IRFU in 2007 to dodge the issue).

Naturally, most unionists in Ireland are going to be Ulster fans, so I thought I'd try and get some views from actual committed supporters on here. The reason for my blog isn't to have a go at rugby; as a nationalist, I was actually hoping to encourage nationalists and southerners to self-reflect on what we expect for ourselves in modern Ireland and compare that to what we expect of unionists, and then weigh that against our notion of how liberal or republican we might like to think we are?

As I say, I'd be interested in hearing the views of actual committed unionist/Protestant Ulster rugby fans, so have a read if interested and feel free to criticise, challenge and/or add a comment here or on the blog. Cheers!

[Spiffsson]

I think you've come to the wrong place mate. I can't speak for everyone here of course, but I think that just about all posters would agree with me that these boards are totally apolitical in nature, a forum for rugby lovers, and nothing else. We may joke here in a good natured way amongst ourselves about flegs, anthems etc. but, like fans from the other three provinces we are all totally commited supporters of the all-Ireland rugby team, whether we be Unionist/Nationalist or anything else by inclination. And what has being Protestant or not to do with anything? Several of the most active posters here are from other Irish provinces, are totally welcome and are an integral part of this board. (The same goes for Ulster supporters posting on discussion groups of the other three provinces of Ireland). The long tradition of the combined North/South rugby team is a great one that transcends all the petty little posturings of political extremists and long may it remain so. I do not know what your background is, but I suspect it has nothing to do with rugby, or else you would know that Irish rugby fans just don't care about politics, borders, flags and anthems etc. I do not know what your political adgenda may be either, since you have failed to spell it out in clear and understandable terms, but, whatever it be, I suggest you take it somewhere else before you are totally annihilated by some of the more vociferous posters here.

[Jackie Brown]

FLEGS!

[Russ]

I'm happy with how things are
Inclusive fleg, inclusive anthem and no quota systems

I did however have a few bad experiences at the world cup with a number of people in FAI shirts, wewring tricolours as capes, singing RA songs and hating on the inclusive elements of the irfu

[Kofi Annan]

I am glad I bought this torch

[Rovi Snave]

I think you've come to the wrong place mate. I can't speak for everyone here of course, but I think that just about all posters would agree with me that these boards are totally apolitical in nature, a forum for rugby lovers, and nothing else. We may joke here in a good natured way amongst ourselves about flegs, anthems etc. but, like fans from the other three provinces we are all totally commited supporters of the all-Ireland rugby team, whether we be Unionist/Nationalist or anything else by inclination. And what has being Protestant or not to do with anything? Several of the most active posters here are from other Irish provinces, are totally welcome and are an integral part of this board. (The same goes for Ulster supporters posting on discussion groups of the other three provinces of Ireland). The long tradition of the combined North/South rugby team is a great one that transcends all the petty little posturings of political extremists and long may it remain so. I do not know what your background is, but I suspect it has nothing to do with rugby, or else you would know that Irish rugby fans just don't care about politics, borders, flags and anthems etc. I do not know what your political adgenda may be either, since you have failed to spell it out in clear and understandable terms, but, whatever it be, I suggest you take it somewhere else before you are totally annihilated by some of the more vociferous posters here.

Well put spiffer - couldn't agree more!!!

Wot Russ said (plus emoji for Connacht )

[BaggyTrousers]

I am glad I bought this torch

Might I borrow it occasionally Kofi, don't think I can manage to acquire one on my wee stipend.

As to our new friend, he was in difficulty at "association football" and lost me entirely at "flegs and anthems".

So:

Dear New Friend,

I would be amazed if there were not several people here to whom Flegs n Anfums are not very dear..... in normal life..... but here and in general in their rugby life, I very much doubt you could search every field and garden they own and find a single solitary fück growing that they'd consider donating to your subject.

We're not rude - well most aren't, I've a degree in deliberate and heartfelt rudeness when I get exercised on a subject - as a collective but you have found the wrong tree up which to bark. Spiffer has given you more or less what I believe to be our common position.

I don't give a flying rats fart about neutral symbols or anthems, I have a natural tendency to despise anyone who describes themselves as either Unionist or Nationalist unless and until they can convince me they are not a rabid dickhead and are worthy of being considered, decent.

So new friend, you've been helped.

Farewell or is it goodbye?

[Rooster]

Flegs and anfums are just a joke on here to most posters as for the political make up of Ulster Rugby supporters by your thoughts you would be very surprised at the actual proportions of unionist/nationalist supporters and as regards rugby none of them give a flying feck who or what they guys they stand with and socialise with believe in politically and quite a few probably don't even know

[Snipe Watson]

Welcome to UAFC Cú Choileáin you ask some questions that are often avoided in Ireland.
Most posters on this board avoid the flags and anthems topic because it always triggers the same debate with the same uninformed entrenched views being bandied about.
My view is that the IRFU have done little to address either of the very real issues that you highlight. Instead they like to bury their heads in the sand and pretend that everything is just fine and dandy.

[Kofi Annan]

Snipe.jpg (189.98 KiB) Viewed 2369 times

[Cú Choileáin]

Thanks for the replies, and the warm welcome... :p

I think you've come to the wrong place mate. I can't speak for everyone here of course, but I think that just about all posters would agree with me that these boards are totally apolitical in nature, a forum for rugby lovers, and nothing else.

...

I do not know what your background is, but I suspect it has nothing to do with rugby, or else you would know that Irish rugby fans just don't care about politics, borders, flags and anthems etc. I do not know what your political adgenda may be either, since you have failed to spell it out in clear and understandable terms, but, whatever it be, I suggest you take it somewhere else before you are totally annihilated by some of the more vociferous posters here.

I have no agenda beyond good intentions, curiosity and self-reflection. The way I perceive it is that the IRFU and southerners do actually care about flags and anthems quite a bit; otherwise, why not give equal and similarly-exclusive treatment to a NI or unionist-specific flag next to the tricolour, or why not have played a region-specific anthem when Ireland played Italy in Ravenhill in 2007? Just my perception, open to correction, and I sought to learn more. If it's a discussion you don't really want to have here, fair enough; I can completely appreciate that as overtly political discussions are inherently contentious and can disrupt the spirit you like to maintain here. I hope you don't feel like I was barging in to stir brad pitt or something; not my intention at all, which was purely to understand the situation a bit better in terms of how Ulster supporters actually felt, but you've given me a good idea. Thank you.

I'm happy with how things are
Inclusive fleg, inclusive anthem and no quota systems

I did however have a few bad experiences at the world cup with a number of people in FAI shirts, wewring tricolours as capes, singing RA songs and hating on the inclusive elements of the irfu

I'm sorry to hear of your experience, although I hope you don't think all Ireland football supporters would be like that.

I am glad I bought this torch

Might I borrow it occasionally Kofi, don't think I can manage to acquire one on my wee stipend.

As to our new friend, he was in difficulty at "association football" and lost me entirely at "flegs and anthems".

So:

Dear New Friend,

I would be amazed if there were not several people here to whom Flegs n Anfums are not very dear..... in normal life..... but here and in general in their rugby life, I very much doubt you could search every field and garden they own and find a single solitary fück growing that they'd consider donating to your subject.

We're not rude - well most aren't, I've a degree in deliberate and heartfelt rudeness when I get exercised on a subject - as a collective but you have found the wrong tree up which to bark. Spiffer has given you more or less what I believe to be our common position.

I don't give a flying rats fart about neutral symbols or anthems, I have a natural tendency to despise anyone who describes themselves as either Unionist or Nationalist unless and until they can convince me they are not a rabid dickhead and are worthy of being considered, decent.

So new friend, you've been helped.

Farewell or is it goodbye?

Ha, thanks for that BaggyTrousers. Message very much received. I guess I'm guilty until proven innocent then? I was simply trying to give a brief idea of where I'm coming from/my background in order to be transparent and reassure that I had no malicious intentions; I'm certainly not a rabid intolerant and recognise the validity of all aspirations.

[Cú Choileáin]

Welcome to UAFC Cú Choileáin you ask some questions that are often avoided in Ireland.
Most posters on this board avoid the flags and anthems topic because it always triggers the same debate with the same uninformed entrenched views being bandied about.
My view is that the IRFU have done little to address either of the very real issues that you highlight. Instead they like to bury their heads in the sand and pretend that everything is just fine and dandy.

Hi Snipe. Thanks for your welcome and opinion.

[BR]

OK - as I believe this is a genuine enquiry and not a WUM, I am going to give my position.

I believe the following is wrong:
Use of tricolour + Ulster flag at RWC (the normal situation of the IRFU flag would be more appropriate)
The position of the IRFU over anthems at the international played at Ravenhill. It was a home match according to IRB and the Union's doublespeak about 'home matches' was an embarrassment to them.

I was brought up attending Lansdowne Road, where I stood with respect for Amhan na bhFiann (that's stand with respect with my hat off; not dance about in my green wig waving at my picture on the big screen - had such a big screen existed). Did I have a problem with that? Not in the slightest - it was perfectly explained by the fact that the anthem played was that of the HOST. It seems that is not necessarily the way some of those watching from the host nation were seeing things, but that was their problem. With the unwelcome (imho) decision to play the anthem of the visiting team at international matches and the eventual adoption of Ireland's Call, my position was further strengthened, although the derision of Ireland's Call by many and downright opposition from a few (it seemed to me, mostly Munstermen) did not lie well with my inclusive view of rugby in Ireland. Ideally, I'd have dropped Amhan na bhFiann at that point, but that was never going to happen. (The same argument was always applied to the flying of the tricolour over the stadium - it represented the nationality of the stadium, not the team playing there. And the IRFU flag tended to be used where it was more appropriate. No problem with supporters waving tricolours; just as I would have no problem with them wearing club/provincial jerseys/scarves/etc)

Then came Ireland v Italy and the first full international at Ravenhill in my lifetime. My logic would dictate that they would play that nice opera piece, followed by GSTQ, follows by Ireland's Call. I'm long enough in the tooth to know that was never going to happen and the IRFU would need to find a fudge. Perhaps *this* was the time to drop Amhan na bhFiann from future Dublin proceedings, or more realisticly a determined ignoring of the questions by the IRFU. But no - what we got from the IRFU was an insulting statement about home matches only being home matches when they are played in the republic.

Does this eat me up and impact on my daily interactions with all things related to Irish rugby? Not in the slightest, you asked my opinion, you got it, but I'm more concerned about the future of my Irish team on the pitch than I am about the diplomatic niceties that surround it, and in that, I share common ground with the majority of contributors here and on the terraces at Ravenhill.

[Snipe Watson]

Snipe.jpg

It'll be quare oul craic....... It'll not get anywhere, but sure it's a quiet rugby weekend so sit back and enjoy.........

[Snipe Watson]

OK - as I believe this is a genuine enquiry and not a WUM, I am going to give my position.

I believe the following is wrong:
Use of tricolour + Ulster flag at RWC (the normal situation of the IRFU flag would be more appropriate)
The position of the IRFU over anthems at the international played at Ravenhill. It was a home match according to IRB and the Union's doublespeak about 'home matches' was an embarrassment to them.

I was brought up attending Lansdowne Road, where I stood with respect for Amhan na bhFiann (that's stand with respect with my hat off; not dance about in my green wig waving at my picture on the big screen - had such a big screen existed). Did I have a problem with that? Not in the slightest - it was perfectly explained by the fact that the anthem played was that of the HOST. It seems that is not necessarily the way some of those watching from the host nation were seeing things, but that was their problem. With the unwelcome (imho) decision to play the anthem of the visiting team at international matches and the eventual adoption of Ireland's Call, my position was further strengthened, although the derision of Ireland's Call by many and downright opposition from a few (it seemed to me, mostly Munstermen) did not lie well with my inclusive view of rugby in Ireland. Ideally, I'd have dropped Amhan na bhFiann at that point, but that was never going to happen. (The same argument was always applied to the flying of the tricolour over the stadium - it represented the nationality of the stadium, not the team playing there. And the IRFU flag tended to be used where it was more appropriate. No problem with supporters waving tricolours; just as I would have no problem with them wearing club/provincial jerseys/scarves/etc)

Then came Ireland v Italy and the first full international at Ravenhill in my lifetime. My logic would dictate that they would play that nice opera piece, followed by GSTQ, follows by Ireland's Call. I'm long enough in the tooth to know that was never going to happen and the IRFU would need to find a fudge. Perhaps *this* was the time to drop Amhan na bhFiann from future Dublin proceedings, or more realisticly a determined ignoring of the questions by the IRFU. But no - what we got from the IRFU was an insulting statement about home matches only being home matches when they are played in the republic.

Does this eat me up and impact on my daily interactions with all things related to Irish rugby? Not in the slightest, you asked my opinion, you got it, but I'm more concerned about the future of my Irish team on the pitch than I am about the diplomatic niceties that surround it, and in that, I share common ground with the majority of contributors here and on the terraces at Ravenhill.

10/10 BR