A little bit of politics folks`

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Re: A little bit of politics folks`

Postby BR » Thu Dec 07, 2017 6:16 pm

Russ wrote:
Dave wrote:
Russ wrote:I thought the south gave up their claims to the north?

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You will upset the GAWAs with all this norf and souf bollix
Winds me right up that all dublin meedya seems unable to give the place its proper title

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Yet there was social media outrage when some English people referred to 'southern Ireland' in a channel 4 voxpop.

An example of why I believe many in the south have not even considered that a UI may be something different than a bigger ROI.
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Re: A little bit of politics folks`

Postby BR » Thu Dec 07, 2017 6:28 pm

promenader 2 wrote:
BR wrote:
promenader 2 wrote:
Rooster wrote:
Shan wrote:[quote="Rooster"]They used to say Paisley and Robinson were the best 2 recruitment agents the provos had, now Arlene and her merry band are the best chance SF have of getting their wish for a United Ireland, biggest problem they now have is convincing both N and S electorate


A hard sell.
A very hard sell Shan since what SF want is a United Ireland under SF rule and I don't think many down your way want that anyway never mind a majority up here

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SF's vote in the north would fall through the floor in the event of a UI. Many northern nationalists vote for them in the same way, I suspect, that many unionists vote for the DUP - ie they think the SDLP (or UU) are fcuked and they want someone to stand up to themuns. The political context of UI would be totally different.

I think it is time that a political party in the South proposed a United Ireland in modern terms. That debate should start.

Exactly how united would it be? Totally unified, as united as it used to be, or just vaguely united like the United Kingdom?

What would our brothers in the south be prepared to forego? I would suggest many have not even considered anything other than the current territory with its current constitution, laws and social practices extended by 6 counties and nothing else changes.

Here's how the debate would go:

Irish nationalism: 'Why don't we have a debate about what a future united Ireland might look like?'
Ulster unionism: >ES >jawdrop :shock: :banghead:[/quote]

The debate needs to be amongst Irish nationalists (or ROI citizens of any persuasion). No need for Ulster unionism to get involved.

As someone from a unionist background - would I vote for 32 county RoI starting tomorrow? No.
Would I vote for an imaginative method of joining the 6 counties into a modern concept of an all-Ireland state within Europe? I'd certainly be looking at the details.

I wonder if any our RoI contributors could indicate if they would even contemplate such a concept (Shan doesn't count cause he's a Brit at heart ;) )
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Re: A little bit of politics folks`

Postby Rooster » Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:37 pm

There are certain things like animal health, water quality and health that have to be looked at on an all Ireland basis irrespective of what type of border controls end up being in force.
Animal diseases don't stop at a border, neither does water pollution and I have seen paramedics at accidents outside their home territory on both sides of the border.
Irish coastguard regularly help in NI rescue and they use the hyperbaric chamber in Craigavon for divers with bends.
PSNI and Garda share knowledge and access their own territory through the others
The list goes on and all those things need taken into account by DUP and everyone else.

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Re: A little bit of politics folks`

Postby Shan » Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:21 pm

BR wrote:
The debate needs to be amongst Irish nationalists (or ROI citizens of any persuasion). No need for Ulster unionism to get involved.

As someone from a unionist background - would I vote for 32 county RoI starting tomorrow? No.
Would I vote for an imaginative method of joining the 6 counties into a modern concept of an all-Ireland state within Europe? I'd certainly be looking at the details.

I wonder if any our RoI contributors could indicate if they would even contemplate such a concept (Shan doesn't count cause he's a Brit at heart ;) )


I remember having this discussion a few years ago with some friends and my view, which remains unchanged, is that if we were to all seriously consider a united Ireland it can not just be an extension of the current Irish state. There's stuff that would have to be binned and we would have to find a way to ensure many Nords did not end up feeling alienated.

I do think you'd come up with as much resistance to change from certain quarters down here as you would in NI.


Be advised I don't have any particular nationalist fervour so I am probably far more open to reconstructing the island's politics etc than most. However one thing I would not even contemplate is a reduction in freedom. Therefore there would be no privilege assigned to religious or cultural based intolerance. No veto of any kind on any social matter. If folk want to live in previous centuries in their own houses as some down here do that is fine but they cannot bring it into public.
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Re: A little bit of politics folks`

Postby BR » Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:00 pm

Shan wrote:Be advised I don't have any particular nationalist fervour


Isn't that what I said?
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Re: A little bit of politics folks`

Postby Dave » Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:04 pm

BR wrote:
Shan wrote:Be advised I don't have any particular nationalist fervour


Isn't that what I said?
You called Stan a brit
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Re: A little bit of politics folks`

Postby BR » Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:04 pm

Shan wrote:
BR wrote:
The debate needs to be amongst Irish nationalists (or ROI citizens of any persuasion). No need for Ulster unionism to get involved.

As someone from a unionist background - would I vote for 32 county RoI starting tomorrow? No.
Would I vote for an imaginative method of joining the 6 counties into a modern concept of an all-Ireland state within Europe? I'd certainly be looking at the details.

I wonder if any our RoI contributors could indicate if they would even contemplate such a concept (Shan doesn't count cause he's a Brit at heart ;) )


I remember having this discussion a few years ago with some friends and my view, which remains unchanged, is that if we were to all seriously consider a united Ireland it can not just be an extension of the current Irish state. There's stuff that would have to be binned and we would have to find a way to ensure many Nords did not end up feeling alienated.

I do think you'd come up with as much resistance to change from certain quarters down here as you would in NI.


Be advised I don't have any particular nationalist fervour so I am probably far more open to reconstructing the island's politics etc than most. However one thing I would not even contemplate is a reduction in freedom. Therefore there would be no privilege assigned to religious or cultural based intolerance. No veto of any kind on any social matter. If folk want to live in previous centuries in their own houses as some down here do that is fine but they cannot bring it into public.

Right - sorted then!
What will have for a flag and anthem?
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Re: A little bit of politics folks`

Postby BaggyTrousers » Thu Dec 07, 2017 10:52 pm

promenader 2 wrote:Here's how the debate would go:

Irish nationalism: 'Why don't we have a debate about what a future united Ireland might look like?'
Ulster unionism: >ES >jawdrop :shock: :banghead:


I am greatly entertained. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Anyway, I know many many Fenianbastards down south. I do not know one who has envisaged any sort of a UI other than some obscure romantic notion that it sounds right.

Furthermore many many fenianbastards I don't know have told me, f*ck off, we don't want you. I take them at their word, they are hardly bullshitting a nordiebastard.

I remember a Lionel asking my dad about a UI sometime in the 1960s when we were in the IOM and well before all the shyte had kicked off again in 1969. Dad said "not in my lifetime, maybe not even within my kids lifetime". 30 plus years of violence and 50 plus years later, my Da remains a bloody good judge, albeit sadly he was certainly right about his own lifetime.
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Re: A little bit of politics folks`

Postby BaggyTrousers » Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:17 pm

As for my own opinion on a UI. Like Shan a whole fecking lot would have to change. I do understand that things have changed pretty rapidly on the Sceptic Isle, but I have long detested the ultra-conservative society that Ireland Sud was in its days of being priest-ridden, many children literally. I also hate the national fawning on the USA.

Has all that changed, I'm not interested enough to find out, to be honest. I do know that I do not "feel" as if I have any relationship to Mexicans, even those who do not follow the BIB.

It is probably a bit naive to think it's too much different anywhere, but politics in ROI was always full of clarts like Charlie the gunrunner Haughey who rules as if the Sheik of Arabi. It always seemed as if anyone who didn't tow his line they were shunned.

Anyway, wouldn't be mad about it, not going to happen anytime soon but if there was any reasoned workable plan, ok let's have a look.
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Re: A little bit of politics folks`

Postby promenader 2 » Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:52 pm

As someone from a northern nationalist background, and an Irish passport holder all my life, I wouldn't want to see a new Ireland simply be an extension of the current RoI. I'm not fussed whether it would be a single Dublin parliament type arrangement, or whether we'd go for some kind of federal set up. The latter would probably be the better option: it would give the southerners a chance to get used to having us about the place, while keeping us at a safe distance. Similarly, it would allow northerners to carry on without too much dramatic change. I'd want a new fleg and a new annfum - not Ireland's Call, that's a deal breaker. I'd want us to be part of the EU. I like being European and am really hacked off with the whole UK brexit stuff.
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Re: A little bit of politics folks`

Postby HwoodMike2umate » Fri Dec 08, 2017 11:20 am

If the 21st January (Trevor Brennan day) was made an Annual Public Holiday throughout all 32 counties of this wee island then I think that might go some way to assuaging the fears of many, but by no means all, Nordies.
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Re: A little bit of politics folks`

Postby Dublin4 » Fri Dec 08, 2017 11:24 am

I always hesitate to say anything on here about political stuff.
Like the vast majority of people in the south, I have no interest in any kind of a take over of the north and am perfectly happy with all the peace and progress of the last twenty years. (As an aside,I admit to puzzlement with your somewhat self absorbed local politicians, why do you pay them to do nothing?).

The Brexit shambles and the sheer stupidity of the Tories in trying to depart an EU where modern British trade and political interests are located, is changing the picture. If the UK wants to destroy its own position and lose all influence by what it is presently doing, then so be it and there is nothing we can do to help them. But it doesn't mean that NI people, or the Scottish for that matter, have to go down with the Titanic.

I could envisage a situation where NI might say it is better off leaving the English to their own devices and hooking up in some loose arrangement with us. I could live with that.

In favour of that happening is the massive change in the ROI in my lifetime. Apart from the economic development, the collapse of organized religion and indeed the growth of anti-clericalism has been quite remarkable. The latter may surprise some of you. Down here, people have no interest whatsoever in dominating NI. We yawn if you mention the local affairs of the north on TV or radio. Of course, older folk here remember and didn't like the way the minority community was treated after 1921 but that's now ancient history.

So I think we are a lot closer than we used to be. If there ever were to be some form of unity within the EU, it would have to include the continuation of Stormont and the system of government you have been used to having. It would have to be some kind of federalism.
I think it would mean your using the Euro.
I think it could also mean retaining UK citizenship if the UK still existed.

Brexit is bringing a lot to the surface. Maybe not what the Tory Europhobes envisaged.
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Re: A little bit of politics folks`

Postby Dave » Fri Dec 08, 2017 11:47 am

Why are we paying our MLAs? I don't know. There is a perception that we are vile moany unfriendly GAWA nutjobs but in reality we are usually the ones to be shat on.
I have my own tv channel, what have you got?
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Re: A little bit of politics folks`

Postby Russ » Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:50 pm

Dublin4 wrote:I always hesitate to say anything on here about political stuff.
Like the vast majority of people in the south, I have no interest in any kind of a take over of the north and am perfectly happy with all the peace and progress of the last twenty years. (As an aside,I admit to puzzlement with your somewhat self absorbed local politicians, why do you pay them to do nothing?).

The Brexit shambles and the sheer stupidity of the Tories in trying to depart an EU where modern British trade and political interests are located, is changing the picture. If the UK wants to destroy its own position and lose all influence by what it is presently doing, then so be it and there is nothing we can do to help them. But it doesn't mean that NI people, or the Scottish for that matter, have to go down with the Titanic.

I could envisage a situation where NI might say it is better off leaving the English to their own devices and hooking up in some loose arrangement with us. I could live with that.

In favour of that happening is the massive change in the ROI in my lifetime. Apart from the economic development, the collapse of organized religion and indeed the growth of anti-clericalism has been quite remarkable. The latter may surprise some of you. Down here, people have no interest whatsoever in dominating NI. We yawn if you mention the local affairs of the north on TV or radio. Of course, older folk here remember and didn't like the way the minority community was treated after 1921 but that's now ancient history.

So I think we are a lot closer than we used to be. If there ever were to be some form of unity within the EU, it would have to include the continuation of Stormont and the system of government you have been used to having. It would have to be some kind of federalism.
I think it would mean your using the Euro.
I think it could also mean retaining UK citizenship if the UK still existed.

Brexit is bringing a lot to the surface. Maybe not what the Tory Europhobes envisaged.
I stopped reading when you said "the north"
Please be respectful to Northern Ireland

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Re: A little bit of politics folks`

Postby Russ » Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:51 pm

Dave wrote:Why are we paying our MLAs? I don't know. There is a perception that we are vile moany unfriendly GAWA nutjobs but in reality we are usually the ones to be shat on.
Our MLAs stopped Brexit and moved billions of English money into the local economy

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