Biblical matters

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Cap'n Grumpy
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Re: Biblical matters

Post by Cap'n Grumpy » Wed Apr 24, 2019 6:54 pm

Shan wrote:
Cap'n Grumpy wrote:
Likewise for race, colour, nationality, parental or marital status, class or social background; and quite rightly so.

However it appears that when someone does the same with regard to religious or political belief, the gloves are off and it becomes open season on anyone who expresses a religious belief or political opinion contrary to what some others believe.
The only thing I can say is that I don't believe that mocking folk on racial grounds, for example, is the same as mocking folk on religious belief grounds. Nobody can choose their race.

That being said it can depend on what we mean by mocking. I mean I might mock somebody who believes their God directs them to deny freedom to people or to target them for shaming or worse. As far as I am concerned that is not just a right but a civic duty.

Trying to belittle somebody only because they profess a belief in a particular God and a desire to live their own lives in line with the details of that belief is not something to admire. However we need to be careful we don't go down the road of wishing to outlaw all speech which may trigger somebody to be offended.

As for political belief - It depends on what you mean. I mean I don't see anything wrong with ridiculing somebody who supports a political movement based on targetting the poor, thirsting for wars, denial of freedoms for example.
No arguments from me on any of that, But I thought I had prattled on long enough instead of trying to cover every eventuality.

My reason for including all the different categories that people are sometimes offensive about is they are the ones most commonly quoted by equal opportunities statements. It was not intended that all were equal, but as i understand it, in certain circumstances, all are protected by law in one way or another. If I have missed any others, it was not intentional.

I would repeat that I have no issues with those who engage in civil debate or discussion and have no desire to stifle genuine comment and free speech. My only issues are with those who clearly set out to be offensive and know they are doing so as they do it.
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Re: Biblical matters

Post by Jackie Brown » Wed Apr 24, 2019 7:02 pm

UlsterAreBrill wrote:
Jackie Brown wrote:Mocking a religion is not the same as mocking someone for their sexuality. One is only faith decided in most cases by the lottery of birth. May be strongly held but it can be changed none the less, you decide to be religious. Sexuality isn't chosen and persecution of it is common especially by Jesus worriers.

Surely you see the difference.

Why should anyone respect beliefs or ideas, beliefs and ideas, especially stupid ones, should be constantly challenged.

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Those two statements are contradictory, because they are relative. If I claimed, and believed wholeheartedly, that the LGBT community held to stupid ideas on sexuality, does that give me the right to mock them? Just because you say something is stupid, doesnt give you the upper hand

I do agree with you somewhat, however. Sexuality isnt a choice, however it deserves as much recognition in the public sphere as religion does. Both are fundamental to many people's identity, regardless of how they "come about", so to speak, so just because you say it is stupid, doesnt give you the right to mock it openly because it is just a bit of fun. Why not the mock other religions around Ramadan, etc? And yes, there are undoubtedly gay people persecuted, but I don't, and many other Christians, would openly condemn them. Such as Lynas did in the article above when talking about Folau. You're lumping all Christians in to the same boat, which isnt right
What about, Anti-vaxers, Homeopaths, flat-earthers, acupuncturists? They deserve as much respect as religion, I mean, it's a belief ain't it.

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Re: Biblical matters

Post by UlsterAreBrill » Wed Apr 24, 2019 7:18 pm

Jackie Brown wrote:
UlsterAreBrill wrote:
Jackie Brown wrote:Mocking a religion is not the same as mocking someone for their sexuality. One is only faith decided in most cases by the lottery of birth. May be strongly held but it can be changed none the less, you decide to be religious. Sexuality isn't chosen and persecution of it is common especially by Jesus worriers.

Surely you see the difference.

Why should anyone respect beliefs or ideas, beliefs and ideas, especially stupid ones, should be constantly challenged.

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Those two statements are contradictory, because they are relative. If I claimed, and believed wholeheartedly, that the LGBT community held to stupid ideas on sexuality, does that give me the right to mock them? Just because you say something is stupid, doesnt give you the upper hand

I do agree with you somewhat, however. Sexuality isnt a choice, however it deserves as much recognition in the public sphere as religion does. Both are fundamental to many people's identity, regardless of how they "come about", so to speak, so just because you say it is stupid, doesnt give you the right to mock it openly because it is just a bit of fun. Why not the mock other religions around Ramadan, etc? And yes, there are undoubtedly gay people persecuted, but I don't, and many other Christians, would openly condemn them. Such as Lynas did in the article above when talking about Folau. You're lumping all Christians in to the same boat, which isnt right
What about, Anti-vaxers, Homeopaths, flat-earthers, acupuncturists? They deserve as much respect as religion, I mean, it's a belief ain't it.

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Yeah, clearly, cause those beliefs hold the same weight in terms of identity as sexuality or religion

And, I should add, even though you clearly didn't read my post, there is a massive difference between challenging something, which I would encourage, and mocking something, as I said above

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Re: Biblical matters

Post by Jackie Brown » Wed Apr 24, 2019 7:25 pm

UlsterAreBrill wrote:
Jackie Brown wrote:
UlsterAreBrill wrote:
Jackie Brown wrote:Mocking a religion is not the same as mocking someone for their sexuality. One is only faith decided in most cases by the lottery of birth. May be strongly held but it can be changed none the less, you decide to be religious. Sexuality isn't chosen and persecution of it is common especially by Jesus worriers.

Surely you see the difference.

Why should anyone respect beliefs or ideas, beliefs and ideas, especially stupid ones, should be constantly challenged.

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Those two statements are contradictory, because they are relative. If I claimed, and believed wholeheartedly, that the LGBT community held to stupid ideas on sexuality, does that give me the right to mock them? Just because you say something is stupid, doesnt give you the upper hand

I do agree with you somewhat, however. Sexuality isnt a choice, however it deserves as much recognition in the public sphere as religion does. Both are fundamental to many people's identity, regardless of how they "come about", so to speak, so just because you say it is stupid, doesnt give you the right to mock it openly because it is just a bit of fun. Why not the mock other religions around Ramadan, etc? And yes, there are undoubtedly gay people persecuted, but I don't, and many other Christians, would openly condemn them. Such as Lynas did in the article above when talking about Folau. You're lumping all Christians in to the same boat, which isnt right
What about, Anti-vaxers, Homeopaths, flat-earthers, acupuncturists? They deserve as much respect as religion, I mean, it's a belief ain't it.

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Yeah, clearly, cause those beliefs hold the same weight in terms of identity as sexuality or religion

And, I should add, even though you clearly didn't read my post, there is a massive difference between challenging something, which I would encourage, and mocking something, as I said above
They aren't comparable to sexuality as they are belief systems, like religion. Sexuality isn't a belief system.

Treating religion and sexuality the same shows how far removed from reality you are.

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Re: Biblical matters

Post by UlsterAreBrill » Wed Apr 24, 2019 7:30 pm

I'm going to assume you didn't read one word of my post, considering I never said any of that

I'll repeat for your benefit, but I literally said I agree with you, that sexuality is not a choice. Obviously religion is a choice, that is the very fabric of religion, I didn't think I needed to clarify that to you

However, given the fundamental nature of both these identities, they deserve as much respect as each other, regardless of their nature

Is that that hard to understand?

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Re: Biblical matters

Post by Jackie Brown » Wed Apr 24, 2019 7:54 pm

No, they don't. One is a choice, one isn't.

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Re: Biblical matters

Post by Dave » Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:02 pm

UlsterAreBrill wrote:
Dave wrote:
jean valjean wrote:Freedom of religion does equate to freedom to discriminate against. I suspect the likes of Lynas would happily support the barring of gay folk from a b&b should the owner wish. Has a Christian in this country ever been barred from receiving a service due to their faith? Absolutely not, and rightly so.
Why is no-one taking offence at jesus being depicted as a white bearded man?


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I thought it was just a man walking out of a small door. Lynas didn't even question that assumption. Let's not forget that Christian's are currently preventing equal rights for gay/lesbian people to marry. Yet other Christian's are on here crying for equal rights because of a few memes.
I thought it was just a man walking out of a small door.

Enough with that nonsense. Clearly, I can post memes mocking other world views or lifestyles and just plead ignorance. Let me find some over the next few days, and i'll post them up later. And if you question my assumption, the fact is that it is just a bit of craic is fine

Let's not forget that Christian's are currently preventing equal rights for gay/lesbian people to marry.

Are they? Obviously in NI there are issues, granted, but let's see:
As of 2 April 2019, same-sex marriage is legally performed and recognized (nationwide or in some jurisdictions) in Argentina, Australia, Austria, Belgium, Brazil, Canada, Colombia, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Iceland, Ireland, Luxembourg, Malta, Mexico, the Netherlands,New Zealand, Norway, Portugal, South Africa, Spain, Sweden, the United Kingdom, the United States, and Uruguay. Israel recognizes same-sex marriages entered into abroad as full marriages. Estonia recognizes foreign same-sex marriages to some degree, and a ministerial decision decreed that Armenia shall as well, though as of February 2019 there had been no actual cases. Same-sex marriage is also due to become legal in Costa Rica and Taiwan. Furthermore, the Inter-American Court of Human Rights has issued a ruling which is expected to facilitate recognition in several countries in the Americas.
Seems an awful lot of countries have passed something which Christians are preventing? Funny that. Unless you mean eastern countries, which aren't Christian nations. Why not go after the leaders in the middle east who prevent same-sex marriage? See that is a bit of a myth, based on a minority sample. Consider the number of countries Christians face persecution: more or less everywhere. The number of Christian martyrs over the past 100 years is more than in the whole of church history. So much so, the ex-President of the united states and an unsuccessful presidential candidate can't even refer to Christians as Christians. Apparently they are people who worship Easter.

Yet other Christian's are on here crying for equal rights because of a few memes.

No, I'm asking you to respect a belief system which a vast number of people hold too. Nowhere have I posted anything offensive to other world views or lifestyles, yet yourself, JB and, to an extent, Big Mervyn seem so keen to be intentionally provocative. Why is this?
Brill it's still a man walking through a door, although yes I am being somewhat facetious. Jesus (if he existed [emoji3]) was not white though.

In NI, unionist politicians have blocked marriage equality using the petition of concern, based on their biblical beliefs. That is what I was referring to. What's your thoughts on marriage equality? Yes or no?

I don't have to respect your belief system. Why should I? I had it rammed down my throat since I was a child. It adversely affected my mental health until I sought help. Unwiring my brain from the Christian belief system was the most freeing and liberating experience of my life.

Telling children that they will go to hell for their unbelief can be an emotionally abusive and psychologically damaging experience. I was that child. Terrified I accepted the 'truths' being told to me by trusted adults. By the time I reached 25 I had endured several depressive episodes. Wrapped by guilt and a sense of being never good enough, I even experienced suicidal thoughts.

I was prayed for many times. Told that Jesus would heal me, that did not happen. Depression felt like a cancer to me. Until I was able to cut out the root cause, I wasn't able to find freedom. Reading about new freeing ideas such as epistemology, nihilism, empiricism etc.. really freed and opened my mind. The rejection of the dysfunctional assumptions I had previously believed as true mirrors the philosophical movement experienced by collective thinking, out of modernity, into an era of post-truth.

This can cause an uneasy feeling if you are heavily invested in the religious life. I tend not to dwell on feelings. The misinterpretation of internal somatic processes exacerbated by emotional reasoning previously led me towards a 'spiritual' conviction that God was truely real. When I engaged my brain and challenged certain assumptions then the belief in God, for me, ended.

There were things that I could say were true, such as the, grass is green. I could believe that to be true 100%, that is by taking reality at face value. When comparing a truth like that to belief in God, I was less and less convinced. 100% reduced to 95, 90, evently 0.

Ultimately I'm not sure why Christians worry so much about memes. If you are secure in your faith, you simply knock the dust off your feet, as we are all off to hell...

Perhaps I've overshared here but it might had some context to how others react to the social media posts of Israel Folau.
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Re: Biblical matters

Post by UlsterAreBrill » Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:08 pm

Jackie Brown wrote:No, they don't. One is a choice, one isn't.

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Denying that is your belief, however I find it completely moronic

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Re: Biblical matters

Post by UlsterAreBrill » Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:16 pm

Dave wrote:
UlsterAreBrill wrote:
Dave wrote:
jean valjean wrote:Freedom of religion does equate to freedom to discriminate against. I suspect the likes of Lynas would happily support the barring of gay folk from a b&b should the owner wish. Has a Christian in this country ever been barred from receiving a service due to their faith? Absolutely not, and rightly so.
Why is no-one taking offence at jesus being depicted as a white bearded man?


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I thought it was just a man walking out of a small door. Lynas didn't even question that assumption. Let's not forget that Christian's are currently preventing equal rights for gay/lesbian people to marry. Yet other Christian's are on here crying for equal rights because of a few memes.
I thought it was just a man walking out of a small door.

Enough with that nonsense. Clearly, I can post memes mocking other world views or lifestyles and just plead ignorance. Let me find some over the next few days, and i'll post them up later. And if you question my assumption, the fact is that it is just a bit of craic is fine

Let's not forget that Christian's are currently preventing equal rights for gay/lesbian people to marry.

Are they? Obviously in NI there are issues, granted, but let's see:
As of 2 April 2019, same-sex marriage is legally performed and recognized (nationwide or in some jurisdictions) in Argentina, Australia, Austria, Belgium, Brazil, Canada, Colombia, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Iceland, Ireland, Luxembourg, Malta, Mexico, the Netherlands,New Zealand, Norway, Portugal, South Africa, Spain, Sweden, the United Kingdom, the United States, and Uruguay. Israel recognizes same-sex marriages entered into abroad as full marriages. Estonia recognizes foreign same-sex marriages to some degree, and a ministerial decision decreed that Armenia shall as well, though as of February 2019 there had been no actual cases. Same-sex marriage is also due to become legal in Costa Rica and Taiwan. Furthermore, the Inter-American Court of Human Rights has issued a ruling which is expected to facilitate recognition in several countries in the Americas.
Seems an awful lot of countries have passed something which Christians are preventing? Funny that. Unless you mean eastern countries, which aren't Christian nations. Why not go after the leaders in the middle east who prevent same-sex marriage? See that is a bit of a myth, based on a minority sample. Consider the number of countries Christians face persecution: more or less everywhere. The number of Christian martyrs over the past 100 years is more than in the whole of church history. So much so, the ex-President of the united states and an unsuccessful presidential candidate can't even refer to Christians as Christians. Apparently they are people who worship Easter.

Yet other Christian's are on here crying for equal rights because of a few memes.

No, I'm asking you to respect a belief system which a vast number of people hold too. Nowhere have I posted anything offensive to other world views or lifestyles, yet yourself, JB and, to an extent, Big Mervyn seem so keen to be intentionally provocative. Why is this?
Brill it's still a man walking through a door, although yes I am being somewhat facetious. Jesus (if he existed [emoji3]) was not white though.

In NI, unionist politicians have blocked marriage equality using the petition of concern, based on their biblical beliefs. That is what I was referring to. What's your thoughts on marriage equality? Yes or no?

I don't have to respect your belief system. Why should I? I had it rammed down my throat since I was a child. It adversely affected my mental health until I sought help. Unwiring my brain from the Christian belief system was the most freeing and liberating experience of my life.

Telling children that they will go to hell for their unbelief can be an emotionally abusive and psychologically damaging experience. I was that child. Terrified I accepted the 'truths' being told to me by trusted adults. By the time I reached 25 I had endured several depressive episodes. Wrapped by guilt and a sense of being never good enough, I even experienced suicidal thoughts.

I was prayed for many times. Told that Jesus would heal me, that did not happen. Depression felt like a cancer to me. Until I was able to cut out the root cause, I wasn't able to find freedom. Reading about new freeing ideas such as epistemology, nihilism, empiricism etc.. really freed and opened my mind. The rejection of the dysfunctional assumptions I had previously believed as true mirrors the philosophical movement experienced by collective thinking, out of modernity, into an era of post-truth.

This can cause an uneasy feeling if you are heavily invested in the religious life. I tend not to dwell on feelings. The misinterpretation of internal somatic processes exacerbated by emotional reasoning previously led me towards a 'spiritual' conviction that God was truely real. When I engaged my brain and challenged certain assumptions then the belief in God, for me, ended.

There were things that I could say were true, such as the, grass is green. I could believe that to be true 100%, that is by taking reality at face value. When comparing a truth like that to belief in God, I was less and less convinced. 100% reduced to 95, 90, evently 0.

Ultimately I'm not sure why Christians worry so much about memes. If you are secure in your faith, you simply knock the dust off your feet, as we are all off to hell...

Perhaps I've overshared here but it might had some context to how others react to the social media posts of Israel Folau.
Thanks Dave for your openness :thumleft:

I know NI is different with marriage equality, that’s why I said it. However it is a myth that Christians are preventing it globally, clearly they arent. In terms of my views on it, I dont agree with it however I would respect those who wish to get married nor would I belittle married couples of the same sex. And yes, I corrected my statement about respecting the belief, rather than the individual

I’m not too worried about the memes, as I said yesterday they dont offend me that much. Perhaps a little distasteful considering what happened in Sri Lanka over the weekend. But it is the principle behind why they are being posted which bothers me more, that’s all

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Re: Biblical matters

Post by big mervyn » Wed Apr 24, 2019 10:09 pm

Shan wrote:At least down here they got rid of the bizaare no pubs open on Good Friday ballix last year. It is stuff like that which can provoke a backlash against religion in general.

Unfortunately it also can trigger the mocking or even abuse of individual religious people who are not clamouring for their personal beliefs to dictate state policy.
I think you've lost out there. Clandestine Good Friday drinking was always an Easter highlight.A daytime lock in!
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Re: Biblical matters

Post by Dave » Wed Apr 24, 2019 10:13 pm

If Jesus came back at the weekend, he would not have been able to turn water into after 10pm. A waste of his talents.
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Re: Biblical matters

Post by Shan » Wed Apr 24, 2019 10:36 pm

big mervyn wrote: I think you've lost out there. Clandestine Good Friday drinking was always an Easter highlight.A daytime lock in!
:lol:

I've heard it said.
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Re: Biblical matters

Post by rumncoke » Wed Apr 24, 2019 10:41 pm

To say it is only Christians who object to same sex marriage is the denial of a traditional truth of society — many and varied since time began — marriage is a relationship between persons of different sexes .

That does not deny the fact that a relationship can exist between persons of the same sex but to it doesn’t mean the relationship is a marriage .

The first task of those who seek to be immoral is to redefine what is moral and society has a duty to take exercise care over what changes it will and will not accept

Moral codes exist for the protection of all not the persecution of the few .





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Re: Biblical matters

Post by Shan » Wed Apr 24, 2019 10:56 pm

Dave wrote:If Jesus came back at the weekend, he would not have been able to turn water into after 10pm. A waste of his talents.
I would like if Jesus came back and advised Christian folk that one can show one's worship via alcohol consumption. That should be enough to pave the way for longer opening hours and maybe a reduction in excise duty. In that specific case I'd relax my desire for no religious interference in law making.

>TLGH
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Re: Biblical matters

Post by Lurgan Lad » Wed Apr 24, 2019 10:57 pm

Snipe Watson wrote:
big mervyn wrote:Folau played the man not the ball.

While it's not my cup of tea, this stuff is not directed at any individual or group of individuals. Baggy gets censored for abusing UAFC members, not for abusing deities.
Yes he does, but here's the rub.
In the Christian spectrum, I'm a bit of a maverick and would be viewed as being more than a bit liberal.
I'm a long way from the fundamentalist Free P end of the broad church diaspora.
Having said that, my Christian faith is the be-all and end-all of my sense of personal identity. It is the foundational and defining principle of my life. It is more important to me than my nationality, my ethnicity, skin colour, my sexuality or anything else about me.
It is not a jacket I put on every Sunday and discard the rest of the week, although plenty of people do live that way, go to church on a Sunday and have a less personal, transactional relationship with Christianity. For me, it's a 24/7/52 way of life.

Now I don't expect non-believers to agree with my world view or even understand my beliefs and I don't expect them to live by the same set of rules as i do, that would be entirely wrong.
What I do expect is for non-believers to respect my right to believe. Despite the fact that to them, holding such "seemingly irrational" belief appears absurd and an absolute mystery. I don't think the fact that you don't get or understand something gives you the right to ridicule those who do get it.

I'll repeat myself for the record. Folau's post was crass, a cheap shot designed to be provocative. Just like the other memes floating around this week.
When the debate is reduced memes, jibes and name calling, I'm out.
Thanks Snipe, through all the past load of pages this was the post I actually enjoyed reading!

Personally some of the memes and jibes I thought were totally unneccessary but hey ho if that is what people want to post that is up to them.

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