Brexit - now we see what it means.

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Setanta
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Re: Brexit - now we see what it means.

Post by Setanta » Tue Aug 20, 2019 4:25 pm

Absolute Horlicks!
From the rolling glens of Antrim through the hills of Donegal we will stand and shout for Ulster as we win both scrum and maul from the lovely lakes of Fermanagh tae the shores of ould Lough Gall we will scream and shout for Ulster as we beat them one and all!

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pwrmoore
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Re: Brexit - now we see what it means.

Post by pwrmoore » Tue Aug 20, 2019 5:01 pm

Setanta wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 4:25 pm
Absolute Horlicks!
Seconded.
Paul.

C'mon Ulsterrrrrrrrr! :red:

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Hapax Legomenon
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Re: Brexit - now we see what it means.

Post by Hapax Legomenon » Tue Aug 20, 2019 7:57 pm

The EU don't move until the 11th hour or later. They play hard ball and in fairness so will Bo Jo, he's putting it up to them. Nobody wants the uncertainty of a no deal, but May allowed the EU to take her to the cleaners.

Boris is still a total dick, but he could just serve a purpose.
There can be only one

promenader 2
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Re: Brexit - now we see what it means.

Post by promenader 2 » Wed Aug 21, 2019 11:22 am

Hapax Legomenon wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 7:57 pm
The EU don't move until the 11th hour or later. They play hard ball and in fairness so will Bo Jo, he's putting it up to them. Nobody wants the uncertainty of a no deal, but May allowed the EU to take her to the cleaners.

Boris is still a total dick, but he could just serve a purpose.
The EU won't move on the backstop, unless it's to revert to the NI only version that May was ready to sign up to way back when. This nonsense that Tusk and co will blink at the last minute is being kept going by the swivelled eyed loons of the Tory Party and by the right wing press in GB. The EU won't blink because it can't blink. It needs to guard its single market and it needs to show that it will stand by its smaller members. Here's the other important reason it won't blink: no deal will be bad for the EU, but it won't be as catastrophically bad as it will be for the UK. The pain the EU will suffer will be a collective pain, shared amongst a group of nations. The UK's will be all its own. Boris may be playing hard ball, but he's holding a set of tom kite cards. One more thing: even if Boris crashes out on a no deal, sooner or later he's going to have to come back to the table to ask for his Canada plus plus plus deal. The EU will make sure that the first item on the agenda of that particular meeting will be the special arrangements needed for NI under any free trade deal. Cue the rebirth of Irish Backstop.

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Setanta
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Re: Brexit - now we see what it means.

Post by Setanta » Wed Aug 21, 2019 3:03 pm

Correct Promenader but as a fantasy fan myself when it comes to books and films I am amazed how many believe in unicorns and fairies at the bottom of the garden.
From the rolling glens of Antrim through the hills of Donegal we will stand and shout for Ulster as we win both scrum and maul from the lovely lakes of Fermanagh tae the shores of ould Lough Gall we will scream and shout for Ulster as we beat them one and all!

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Hapax Legomenon
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Re: Brexit - now we see what it means.

Post by Hapax Legomenon » Wed Aug 21, 2019 3:12 pm

promenader 2 wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 11:22 am
Hapax Legomenon wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 7:57 pm
The EU don't move until the 11th hour or later. They play hard ball and in fairness so will Bo Jo, he's putting it up to them. Nobody wants the uncertainty of a no deal, but May allowed the EU to take her to the cleaners.

Boris is still a total dick, but he could just serve a purpose.
The EU won't move on the backstop, unless it's to revert to the NI only version that May was ready to sign up to way back when. This nonsense that Tusk and co will blink at the last minute is being kept going by the swivelled eyed loons of the Tory Party and by the right wing press in GB. The EU won't blink because it can't blink. It needs to guard its single market and it needs to show that it will stand by its smaller members. Here's the other important reason it won't blink: no deal will be bad for the EU, but it won't be as catastrophically bad as it will be for the UK. The pain the EU will suffer will be a collective pain, shared amongst a group of nations. The UK's will be all its own. Boris may be playing hard ball, but he's holding a set of tom kite cards. One more thing: even if Boris crashes out on a no deal, sooner or later he's going to have to come back to the table to ask for his Canada plus plus plus deal. The EU will make sure that the first item on the agenda of that particular meeting will be the special arrangements needed for NI under any free trade deal. Cue the rebirth of Irish Backstop.
How do you know?
There can be only one

promenader 2
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Re: Brexit - now we see what it means.

Post by promenader 2 » Wed Aug 21, 2019 3:33 pm

Hapax Legomenon wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 3:12 pm
promenader 2 wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 11:22 am
Hapax Legomenon wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 7:57 pm
The EU don't move until the 11th hour or later. They play hard ball and in fairness so will Bo Jo, he's putting it up to them. Nobody wants the uncertainty of a no deal, but May allowed the EU to take her to the cleaners.

Boris is still a total dick, but he could just serve a purpose.
The EU won't move on the backstop, unless it's to revert to the NI only version that May was ready to sign up to way back when. This nonsense that Tusk and co will blink at the last minute is being kept going by the swivelled eyed loons of the Tory Party and by the right wing press in GB. The EU won't blink because it can't blink. It needs to guard its single market and it needs to show that it will stand by its smaller members. Here's the other important reason it won't blink: no deal will be bad for the EU, but it won't be as catastrophically bad as it will be for the UK. The pain the EU will suffer will be a collective pain, shared amongst a group of nations. The UK's will be all its own. Boris may be playing hard ball, but he's holding a set of tom kite cards. One more thing: even if Boris crashes out on a no deal, sooner or later he's going to have to come back to the table to ask for his Canada plus plus plus deal. The EU will make sure that the first item on the agenda of that particular meeting will be the special arrangements needed for NI under any free trade deal. Cue the rebirth of Irish Backstop.
How do you know?
'You don't need a weather man to know which way the wind blows'

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Hapax Legomenon
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Re: Brexit - now we see what it means.

Post by Hapax Legomenon » Wed Aug 21, 2019 4:41 pm

promenader 2 wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 3:33 pm
Hapax Legomenon wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 3:12 pm
promenader 2 wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 11:22 am
Hapax Legomenon wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 7:57 pm
The EU don't move until the 11th hour or later. They play hard ball and in fairness so will Bo Jo, he's putting it up to them. Nobody wants the uncertainty of a no deal, but May allowed the EU to take her to the cleaners.

Boris is still a total dick, but he could just serve a purpose.
The EU won't move on the backstop, unless it's to revert to the NI only version that May was ready to sign up to way back when. This nonsense that Tusk and co will blink at the last minute is being kept going by the swivelled eyed loons of the Tory Party and by the right wing press in GB. The EU won't blink because it can't blink. It needs to guard its single market and it needs to show that it will stand by its smaller members. Here's the other important reason it won't blink: no deal will be bad for the EU, but it won't be as catastrophically bad as it will be for the UK. The pain the EU will suffer will be a collective pain, shared amongst a group of nations. The UK's will be all its own. Boris may be playing hard ball, but he's holding a set of tom kite cards. One more thing: even if Boris crashes out on a no deal, sooner or later he's going to have to come back to the table to ask for his Canada plus plus plus deal. The EU will make sure that the first item on the agenda of that particular meeting will be the special arrangements needed for NI under any free trade deal. Cue the rebirth of Irish Backstop.
How do you know?
'You don't need a weather man to know which way the wind blows'
Right, so you don't know then.
You just believe what others are saying.
There can be only one

promenader 2
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Re: Brexit - now we see what it means.

Post by promenader 2 » Wed Aug 21, 2019 5:54 pm

Hapax Legomenon wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 4:41 pm
promenader 2 wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 3:33 pm
Hapax Legomenon wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 3:12 pm
promenader 2 wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 11:22 am
Hapax Legomenon wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 7:57 pm
The EU don't move until the 11th hour or later. They play hard ball and in fairness so will Bo Jo, he's putting it up to them. Nobody wants the uncertainty of a no deal, but May allowed the EU to take her to the cleaners.

Boris is still a total dick, but he could just serve a purpose.
The EU won't move on the backstop, unless it's to revert to the NI only version that May was ready to sign up to way back when. This nonsense that Tusk and co will blink at the last minute is being kept going by the swivelled eyed loons of the Tory Party and by the right wing press in GB. The EU won't blink because it can't blink. It needs to guard its single market and it needs to show that it will stand by its smaller members. Here's the other important reason it won't blink: no deal will be bad for the EU, but it won't be as catastrophically bad as it will be for the UK. The pain the EU will suffer will be a collective pain, shared amongst a group of nations. The UK's will be all its own. Boris may be playing hard ball, but he's holding a set of tom kite cards. One more thing: even if Boris crashes out on a no deal, sooner or later he's going to have to come back to the table to ask for his Canada plus plus plus deal. The EU will make sure that the first item on the agenda of that particular meeting will be the special arrangements needed for NI under any free trade deal. Cue the rebirth of Irish Backstop.
How do you know?
'You don't need a weather man to know which way the wind blows'
Right, so you don't know then.
You just believe what others are saying.
I'll let you in on a secret, my friend: noone, not a single person, knows for sure. It's all just conjecture and opinion. I gave you my opinion, but feel free to disregard it. :thumleft:

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Jackie Brown
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Re: Brexit - now we see what it means.

Post by Jackie Brown » Wed Aug 21, 2019 10:34 pm

So Brexit will make people work harder? I think that's what Lurganlad is getting at. He's bought the Brexit lunacy hook line and sinker, could probably do with doing a bit of reading from unbiased sources.

30days to sort the border, easy peasy.

I predict a Boris plan of a snap election, Irish Sea border plan and hope for a majority.
Gonna Party Like It's 1999

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Hapax Legomenon
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Re: Brexit - now we see what it means.

Post by Hapax Legomenon » Wed Aug 21, 2019 11:44 pm

promenader 2 wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 5:54 pm
Hapax Legomenon wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 4:41 pm
promenader 2 wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 3:33 pm
Hapax Legomenon wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 3:12 pm
promenader 2 wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 11:22 am

The EU won't move on the backstop, unless it's to revert to the NI only version that May was ready to sign up to way back when. This nonsense that Tusk and co will blink at the last minute is being kept going by the swivelled eyed loons of the Tory Party and by the right wing press in GB. The EU won't blink because it can't blink. It needs to guard its single market and it needs to show that it will stand by its smaller members. Here's the other important reason it won't blink: no deal will be bad for the EU, but it won't be as catastrophically bad as it will be for the UK. The pain the EU will suffer will be a collective pain, shared amongst a group of nations. The UK's will be all its own. Boris may be playing hard ball, but he's holding a set of tom kite cards. One more thing: even if Boris crashes out on a no deal, sooner or later he's going to have to come back to the table to ask for his Canada plus plus plus deal. The EU will make sure that the first item on the agenda of that particular meeting will be the special arrangements needed for NI under any free trade deal. Cue the rebirth of Irish Backstop.
How do you know?
'You don't need a weather man to know which way the wind blows'
Right, so you don't know then.
You just believe what others are saying.
I'll let you in on a secret, my friend: noone, not a single person, knows for sure. It's all just conjecture and opinion. I gave you my opinion, but feel free to disregard it. :thumleft:
Have a read at my earlier post and you'll see that is exactly what I'm saying. There is no precedent so nobody knows.
There can be only one

Lurgan Lad
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Re: Brexit - now we see what it means.

Post by Lurgan Lad » Fri Aug 23, 2019 5:40 pm

Jackie Brown wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 9:12 pm
Productivity usually implies to industries where you are creating something. We don't really do that in the UK anymore. I'm a teacher, how can my productivity as a member of the public sector increase?

There's plenty of things we've signed up as part of the EU, they are outside our borders so are international agreements. Here's them broken down a bit,

£16.4bn (€18.5bn) towards the UK’s contribution to the EU budget to December 2020 (after offsetting for the UK rebate);
£18.2bn (€20.2bn) towards outstanding commitments for projects that have been signed off but not yet paid for by 2020 (The Reste à Liquider ("RAL") from successive Multiannual Financial Frameworks) to be paid up to 2028; and
£2.5bn (€2.7bn) for other financial liabilities, being an estimate for pension liabilities of €9.5bn offset by other assets totalling €6.8bn. The payments towards the pension liabilities are estimated to be made until 2064.

You don't just walk away from your financial commitments, whether you're a person or a country.
Sorry you are competely incorrect on the first point, productivity applies to the whole economy both public and private and is so essential to wage growth. I'll give you a few simple examples, in my previous work which wasn't a production company they were keen on measuring the relationship between number of employees and turnover/gross margin, in that year on year could we increase the turnover per employee as they reap economies of scale as they become more productive per person. That by definition is them increasing their productivity.

In my current position I manage part of the finance function, I have been able to reduce the number of people in my department from 6 to 4 while improving the information we provide.

If you have for example a window cleaner that is somehow able to double his efficiency that is going to lead to three main changes. It is going to lead to more customers switching to him as he cuts prices putting pressure on other window cleaners to reduce their prices, it is going to lead to an increase in the customers disposable income as their weekly costs fall, and it is going to lead to the window cleaner having an increased income. None of these examples, two real world and one an example have anything to do with manufacturing, and as soon as we get out of the EU increasing productivity needs to be the government's main focus. I believe Theresa May started a review of this although I haven't followed it at all.

Probably the most famous productivity improvement system is the Toyota Production System, and while initially it applies to Toyota which is obviously production it has been applied to all parts of them and to loads of companies of all types around the world. Its main principle is the elimination of waste/non value added work. As for yourself as a teacher, firstly my mum was a teacher and one of my brothers still is, so I have every sympatchy for you lol! I would argue that in this service industry where it is free to the customers it is the quality of the service against cost that matters, not how well the pupils turn out because in the main that is up to them if they embrace their free education or not. I very much doubt that you would feel all the teachers in your school produce the same level of teaching, so it is about increasing the quality of the product while eliminating waste, both in terms of cost and time.

Thanks for your examples of what agreements we are apparently welching on, no idea how we are welching on agreements when we decide to withdraw from something? People, individuals, companies, and governments make and withdraw from agreements all the time. The legal advice from the remain dominated House of Lords was very clear, we are not liable for future EU costs. If I resign from a rugby club do I still have to pay part of their future liabilities? All governments have changes in their financial circumstances, and have to cut their cloth accordingly, why exactly are the EU different? When companies have had to cut their final salary pensions, government departments have had to do similar, how can a body that has 60-70 million people leaving it that subsidised it feel it shouldn't cut its budget by something like 14% (66m/508m)?

As for what is going to happen Hapax is obviously correct, if I was a betting man I would go for we will leave without a deal and within a month an agreement will be reached because that is in everyone's interests. I wouldn't feel confident that the EU will survive long term in anything like the form it is, it is incredibly undemocratic, it is joining nations together a lot of whom don't have much in common, and I think the nationalism of individual countries will continue to increase.

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Re: Brexit - now we see what it means.

Post by Lurgan Lad » Fri Aug 23, 2019 5:48 pm

Jackie Brown wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 10:34 pm
So Brexit will make people work harder? I think that's what Lurganlad is getting at. He's bought the Brexit lunacy hook line and sinker, could probably do with doing a bit of reading from unbiased sources.

30days to sort the border, easy peasy.

I predict a Boris plan of a snap election, Irish Sea border plan and hope for a majority.
You can read through the post I've just put on, Brexit to me is about reducing an incredibly undemocratic and costly tier of government and allowing decision makers to be closer to those they supposedly represent. I'm happy to let it play out and realistically we won't be able to judge the long term effects I would guess until 5 years from now. I just wish Stormont the politicians at Stormont were held to account so we could have some form of proper democracy there too.

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Gary
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Re: Brexit - now we see what it means.

Post by Gary » Fri Aug 23, 2019 7:26 pm

Lurgan Lad, in 5 years time we'll either still be in the EU or have re-joined it.
I have a cunning plan...why not just leave things as they are but tell the Brexiteers that we have left the EU? After all they believe every lie that they were told by Boris and Nigel.

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Re: Brexit - now we see what it means.

Post by big mervyn » Wed Aug 28, 2019 5:59 pm

Hands up.Who had heard of the word prorogue before today?
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