Brexit - now we see what it means.

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rumncoke
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Re: Brexit - now we see what it means.

Post by rumncoke » Fri Aug 30, 2019 11:20 am

EVIL KIWI

What did those who voted for SF vote for they never take their seats . Parliament does not meet during the summer does that mean you cease to be represented ? They also don't sit during Xmas or Easter.

As stated Boris will in my view call an election with a united Party facing a divided opposition. with Nigel in tow for non Tory winnable seats.

A divided opposition have exposed their hand . With Boris going into an election with an electorate who are sick and tired of the word Brexit wanting the job done and finished any which way possible
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big mervyn
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Re: Brexit - now we see what it means.

Post by big mervyn » Fri Aug 30, 2019 11:33 am

rumncoke wrote:
Fri Aug 30, 2019 10:27 am
grow up

The media stopped being the press about 1990 -- half the electorate don't read a paper.

Gary once out the EU will not want to repeat the this GB will not be allowed to rejoin.

Boris has got the opposition exactly where he wants them and they declared their hand first with an all Party meeting to block No Deal and couldn't agree even than how.

There is and always has been an alternative to the backstop -- instead of" the border down the Irish Sea --a Trade border in the English Channel . Which makes more sense in many ways !!!
The half that do read the paper voted Brexit. Sun reading white van men and coffin dodging Mail readers.
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Re: Brexit - now we see what it means.

Post by Evil Kiwi » Fri Aug 30, 2019 12:55 pm

rumncoke wrote:
Fri Aug 30, 2019 11:20 am
EVIL KIWI

What did those who voted for SF vote for they never take their seats . Parliament does not meet during the summer does that mean you cease to be represented ? They also don't sit during Xmas or Easter.

As stated Boris will in my view call an election with a united Party facing a divided opposition. with Nigel in tow for non Tory winnable seats.

A divided opposition have exposed their hand . With Boris going into an election with an electorate who are sick and tired of the word Brexit wanting the job done and finished any which way possible
Ah now don't play dumb, this is an entirely different situation to the usual recesses. SF voters know what they are getting when they vote. This is NOT a holiday like xmas or easter, this is a deliberate attempt to subvert our democratic rights during the biggest political crisis in decades. All to allow a prime minister elected as leader by 0.2% of the country to get his no deal.

The Tories are a very divided party. The whole concept of a Brexit referendum was an attempt to unite the cracks by silencing the euro- skeptics on the back bench. Political lines are being redrawn upon a leave/remain axis. Sad but true.

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Re: Brexit - now we see what it means.

Post by Jackie Brown » Fri Aug 30, 2019 1:56 pm

A trade border in the English channel? An irexit? How arrogant. feck Brexit, I hope this is the first step to a Nirexit from the UK.
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big mervyn
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Re: Brexit - now we see what it means.

Post by big mervyn » Fri Aug 30, 2019 2:45 pm

Evil Kiwi wrote:
Fri Aug 30, 2019 12:55 pm
rumncoke wrote:
Fri Aug 30, 2019 11:20 am
EVIL KIWI

What did those who voted for SF vote for they never take their seats . Parliament does not meet during the summer does that mean you cease to be represented ? They also don't sit during Xmas or Easter.

As stated Boris will in my view call an election with a united Party facing a divided opposition. with Nigel in tow for non Tory winnable seats.

A divided opposition have exposed their hand . With Boris going into an election with an electorate who are sick and tired of the word Brexit wanting the job done and finished any which way possible
Ah now don't play dumb, this is an entirely different situation to the usual recesses. SF voters know what they are getting when they vote. This is NOT a holiday like xmas or easter, this is a deliberate attempt to subvert our democratic rights during the biggest political crisis in decades. All to allow a prime minister elected as leader by 0.2% of the country to get his no deal.

The Tories are a very divided party. The whole concept of a Brexit referendum was an attempt to unite the cracks by silencing the euro- skeptics on the back bench. Political lines are being redrawn upon a leave/remain axis. Sad but true.
SF and their supporters are far from dumb. A hard Brexit and political instability suits them down to the ground. Why do you think West Belfast was so lukewarm in the referendum? Brexit is also the main reason why they are reluctant to go back to Stormont. They are happy to sit on the sidelines while the Tories/DUP make a total hames of it.

Likewise in Scotland, the SNP secretly love Brexit.
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Re: Brexit - now we see what it means.

Post by Lurgan Lad » Fri Aug 30, 2019 6:31 pm

Evil Kiwi wrote:
Fri Aug 30, 2019 10:52 am
Vanhelsing wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 10:13 pm
Evil Kiwi wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 11:22 am
Since the UK has a parliamentary democracy, the deliberate suspension of said parliament is akin to a suspension of democracy. All in the name of taking back control? Crazy times.
you taking the pi$h,we voted to leave.
Are you taking the pi$h? I voted for political representation. Our whole political system is based upon political representation. Democracy did not begin and end on the 23rd June 2016.
Beginning to think you mightn't be a New Zealander? Democracy isn't a pure thing when you have instances like in the US where the person who gets the most votes doesn't become president. As for the UK how did you vote for political representation or have you phrased that weirdly?

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Re: Brexit - now we see what it means.

Post by Evil Kiwi » Sat Aug 31, 2019 12:54 pm

I may have phrased it weirdly but hopefully the context of the discussion will help you as you continue your journey into conscious thought.

There are many forms of shoddy democratic institutions. Such as in the in UK. A parliament in which one party only wins the popular vote 2.4%, yet is able to claim a majority government. Is that fair representation?Unelected head of state. Unelected upper house in parliament. So to subvert the only sublemnce of an elected house at this critical juncture is wholly corrupt, authoritarianism.

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Jackie Brown
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Re: Brexit - now we see what it means.

Post by Jackie Brown » Sat Aug 31, 2019 1:35 pm

Democracy arrived and left the UK on the 23rd June 2016.
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Re: Brexit - now we see what it means.

Post by Lurgan Lad » Sat Aug 31, 2019 2:17 pm

Evil Kiwi wrote:
Sat Aug 31, 2019 12:54 pm
I may have phrased it weirdly but hopefully the context of the discussion will help you as you continue your journey into conscious thought.

There are many forms of shoddy democratic institutions. Such as in the in UK. A parliament in which one party only wins the popular vote 2.4%, yet is able to claim a majority government. Is that fair representation?Unelected head of state. Unelected upper house in parliament. So to subvert the only sublemnce of an elected house at this critical juncture is wholly corrupt, authoritarianism.
So when you said you voted for political representation what you mean is that you voted and you feel that your vote should be heard regardless of who forms the government or won a referendum? What party only won 2.4% of the popular vote and formed a majority government? Yes we do have an unelected head of state and upper house in parliament, we also have loads of SPADS and spin doctors that wield undue influence, just like we have donors, trade bodies and companies that are able to affect policy unfairly. What are you proposing?

As for the prorogation of parliament I do feel a bit uncomfortable about it, the bottom line is though that by a huge majority parliament voted to implement article 50 without any conditions, would be interested to know if parliament didn't have the option to insert conditions in the vote?

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Re: Brexit - now we see what it means.

Post by Evil Kiwi » Sat Aug 31, 2019 6:22 pm

Lurgan Lad wrote:
Sat Aug 31, 2019 2:17 pm
Evil Kiwi wrote:
Sat Aug 31, 2019 12:54 pm
I may have phrased it weirdly but hopefully the context of the discussion will help you as you continue your journey into conscious thought.

There are many forms of shoddy democratic institutions. Such as in the in UK. A parliament in which one party only wins the popular vote 2.4%, yet is able to claim a majority government. Is that fair representation?Unelected head of state. Unelected upper house in parliament. So to subvert the only sublemnce of an elected house at this critical juncture is wholly corrupt, authoritarianism.
So when you said you voted for political representation what you mean is that you voted and you feel that your vote should be heard regardless of who forms the government or won a referendum? What party only won 2.4% of the popular vote and formed a majority government? Yes we do have an unelected head of state and upper house in parliament, we also have loads of SPADS and spin doctors that wield undue influence, just like we have donors, trade bodies and companies that are able to affect policy unfairly. What are you proposing?

As for the prorogation of parliament I do feel a bit uncomfortable about it, the bottom line is though that by a huge majority parliament voted to implement article 50 without any conditions, would be interested to know if parliament didn't have the option to insert conditions in the vote?
Sorry, I'm phrasing things weirdly again 😃

I meant to say that the popular vote was won by 2.4% margin.

Absolutely my voice deserves to be heard regardless of who won a referendum or election. It's absurd to think otherwise. That is the purpose of having a local constituency. It means that I have the right to contact my local MP or any MP for that matter and have my say. For all the good it may do. When you remove or suspend parliament, the grass roots of political activism loses it's voice.

Weak leadership from May and co, alligned with poor opposition from Corbyn and co allowed the roots of this current situation to grow. They believed the lies told during the referendum campaign, that securing a milk and honey deal would be easy. They did not envisage a Boris Johnson Prime Minister playing games of brinkmanship with a no deal firmly on the table.

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big mervyn
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Re: Brexit - now we see what it means.

Post by big mervyn » Sat Aug 31, 2019 8:47 pm

Nobody has won the popular vote in the UK for a long time, Theresa got about 37%. Democracy my ar$e
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Re: Brexit - now we see what it means.

Post by Lurgan Lad » Sun Sep 01, 2019 10:12 pm

big mervyn wrote:
Sat Aug 31, 2019 8:47 pm
Nobody has won the popular vote in the UK for a long time, Theresa got about 37%. Democracy my ar$e
In a multi party democracy I think I would be concerned if one party won more than 50% of the vote.

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big mervyn
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Re: Brexit - now we see what it means.

Post by big mervyn » Sun Sep 01, 2019 10:54 pm

Lurgan Lad wrote:
Sun Sep 01, 2019 10:12 pm
big mervyn wrote:
Sat Aug 31, 2019 8:47 pm
Nobody has won the popular vote in the UK for a long time, Theresa got about 37%. Democracy my ar$e
In a multi party democracy I think I would be concerned if one party won more than 50% of the vote.
You should be concerned when less than 40% of the vote gives 100% of the power.
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Re: Brexit - now we see what it means.

Post by solidarity » Mon Sep 02, 2019 8:14 am

What are the alternatices , Merv? I agree that the system isn't ideal but I can't see a better way. The party with the biggest share of the votes has a mandate. I guess the only to have a 'majority' goernment is to have a coalition. I used to be more encouraged by thinking in the longer term. In road terms, if the partyof the individua leads for a whle, then the party of the community for a while, things tend to even out in the long term. But since Labour became more a party catering for the individual, things have gone astray. We now have government by competing lobby groups. This strongly favours the wealthy and the well organised.

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Re: Brexit - now we see what it means.

Post by Lurgan Lad » Mon Sep 02, 2019 10:49 pm

Find it hard to agree that less than 40% of the vote gives 100% of the power. Firstly it is time limited, secondly it is legally limited in that we don't often hear of the party in power having the opposition shot, thirdly a party will pay for its actions at the ballot box if its policies are unpopular, and I guess fourthly in the UK we now have nationalism in NI, Scotland and Wales that arguably constrains what the main parties can do.
Agree with solidarity that over time policy does appear to return to the centre as government fluctuates between Conservatives and Labour. To be worried about a low share of the vote giving a party office would suggest that we should have just two party politics, or else of course PR. In theory if a party put forward candidates in only 51% of constituencies and won them all with an average of 34% of the vote you could have a party with 17% share of the vote having a majority so glad we aren't anywhere near that.
I now live in a constituency in England that will probably always be Labour, and it does give you the sense that your vote doesn't matter, haven't really got it formed in my head what the best idea is but possibly some mix of half first past the post and half PR might work as I'm not a fan of the Italian version of democracy?

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