Manchester

[CIMANFOREVER]

Just some comments, as someone with an 18 year old daughter:

1. First and foremost, children and innocent people butchered for no justifiable reason- I have unfathomable sorrow & sympathy for the victims and their families/ friends that overrides everything else ; distain, scant regard, disgust, & anger for the perpetrators and their sympathisers .

2. The Omerta, honour/ shame factor/ sympathy in these communities IS a major problem which can't be deflected by the usual suspects; coupled with the white liberal guilt trip regarding criticising/ challenging anyone other than a white European male. Little Englanders didn't murder those children nor were they in anyway culpable, so lets not deflect the core issues. The same guilt and spinelessness from the press/ police and social services, and lack of anger/ "not in my name" from the protective Muslim communities that refused to expose the Rotheram child abuse ring because of the obvious race & religious implications- both are from the same virulent strain of Islam that sees whites and non adherents (including liberal muslims) as heretics/ apostates & kuffirs etc. In Rotheram, White children were seen as subhuman to be abused, in the same way as this vermin viewed the children in Manchester on Tuesday night- they wouldn't have dreamt of desecrating muslim kids in Rotheram (thank goodness) but viewed anyone at a Westernised event (including young Muslim kids) as fair game. Lets call a spade a spade. The phrase that come to mind is "Good Germans" for communities that remain silent, refuse to co-oprate (and there is evidence that some do) or tacit in their support.

There is a core issue that is not being faced down in these communities, and as a result, justifiably or not, people become nervous and suspicious by the general silence from them. Cut and paste to the seventies, and the British mainland attitude to "Irish." Its an understandable, sometimes unfocussed, reaction based on ultimately self-preservation. No-one can accuse UK of being intolerant to migrants, not to the extent of justifying this butchery and other atrocities that some go out of their way to implied as well, almost justifiable in some way. Perverse logic.

You also have the official Opposition of the Queens government which openly houses anti-Semites, muslim radicals, and a leadership that refuses to condemn them and other terrorists them as a further example of our over indulgence and tolerance.

3. There is no foreseeable current negotiating channel with these people/ organisations afaik- either because they are so disparate, have no coherent political strategy, or simply don't want to negotiate- negotiation implies things other than achieving the ultimate aim of complete destruction of the societies/ religions it sees as "evil" or the total annexation/ subsuming of other religions and cultures as subservient. So what does the state/ we do? Do we remain in a paralysis of colonial guilt, let children be slaughtered, seen as an easy touch?

There is a considerable rump of radical Islam that sees Europe as a liberal, soft, paunchy treasure chest, ripe to be plundered and annexed, where Leaders and liberals invite unchallenged and unscreened millions of migrants, including many radicalised terrorists and sympathisers/ adherents to this poison strain of Islam; invitations into countries & cultures where they completely change the ethnic mix to such an extent that existing liberal cultures and ideals (that ironically welcome them) are threatened, and, unchallenged on this by Government/ social pressure/ immigration law, fail to integrate, learn about or become exposed to other cultures and suspicious of everything that challenges their narrow, malignant world view of hate. Sweden, Norway, parts of Germany, France etc.. These countries have, as a result, seen an increase in the far right- that's not by chance.

Ironically, we seem to miss that Siekh, Hindu, Jews and other religions and races live and integrate normally into Western society, whilst maintaining their ethnic and religious identities- to an extent that their integration is now mainstream in everyday western life- e.g celebrating Dawhali festival, myriad other examples etc.. No other sect or religion has removed itself from mainstream life to the extent of these strains of Islam.

4. Luton Mosque and those of a similar ilk allowed to continue to breed foment unhindered. Google Jizyah, attitude to apostates, Jews, athiests and other religions and the ideology of outbreeding westerners in Europe, ironically where they've been invited in to shelter from poverty, depravity, war etc and returned the welcome with a rape culture, abuse, crime, sectarian and race hate. This malignant shyte is spouted at every turn by these Imams,. who are, under our laws, allowed the freedom of speech to do so with relative impunity.

Chris Hitchens was bang on- it's a primitive, beyond medieval collection of madcap meanderings and brain dead pronouncements from retarded child molesting sub humans that respects no-one- male, female, child, other religions or none- good luck if you're LGBT in areas of Birmingham, Leeds, London, most European capitals, or even worse, North or central Africa, where you'll either be learning to fly, or heading bricks.

Its ironic that Islam was once seen as the beacon of learning, science, education and tolerance that exposed Christianity at the time as the same primitive type of retarded doctrine that Islam itself has now regressed back into.

[Rooster]

I think what worries them about this guy is the fact he had a pretty potent bomb and the big question is did he get lucky as it is not that simple to make a homemade reliable bomb or have they a master bomb maker somewhere packing rucksacks and giving them to nutters more than there being a dozen of these guys in a gang.

He went to Libya recently, so potentially he might have been shown how. If there is a bomb maker living in the UK and has supplied this kunt, then I can't imagine he will remain at large for long. Cameron's decision to cut police numbers is looking almost criminal. The billions wasted on trident should be invested in preventing further atrocities.

Potentially shown how would be about the height of it. It is one thing putting together a kit form bomb from semtex, detonator, power pack and switch but totally different to making up the bomb from scratch using chemicals to make the explosive and some primitive home made detonator, much more complex than a Provo type fertilizer bomb as you wouldn't get enough in your rucksack to crack a few windows

[Dave]

I think what worries them about this guy is the fact he had a pretty potent bomb and the big question is did he get lucky as it is not that simple to make a homemade reliable bomb or have they a master bomb maker somewhere packing rucksacks and giving them to nutters more than there being a dozen of these guys in a gang.

He went to Libya recently, so potentially he might have been shown how. If there is a bomb maker living in the UK and has supplied this kunt, then I can't imagine he will remain at large for long. Cameron's decision to cut police numbers is looking almost criminal. The billions wasted on trident should be invested in preventing further atrocities.

Potentially shown how would be about the height of it. It is one thing putting together a kit form bomb from semtex, detonator, power pack and switch but totally different to making up the bomb from scratch using chemicals to make the explosive and some primitive home made detonator, much more complex than a Provo type fertilizer bomb as you wouldn't get enough in your rucksack to crack a few windows

Just reading some breaking news. The police are confirming the existence of a network. Two brothers have been arrested.

I hope they catch these fcukers.

[Shan]

These murderers knowing they were going to kill children are depraved. Can't imagine what the people impacted directly have gone through and are going through.

[mikerob]

You've got a couple of things in common with the Manchester bomber bazaaj.

You both don't want a liberal society and you are both wrong.

[Cockatrice]

Firstly my deepest sympathy to those that lost their lives or will be scared for life with the injuries and to the families,,

Secondly many of these experts have never met a terrorist never mind a suicide bomber and rely too much studying books on the subject written by other people that haven't met a terrorist either.. .

[BaggyTrousers]

I have friends and colleagues that were among the first on scene to this, truly horrible and humbling stories of what they were faced with.

I dealt with a couple of young people who attended the arena and fortunately made it out without any visible injury. However, several young boys and girls will be bearing the emotional scars for life.

One image that will stay with me is a mum hugging her 14 year old daughter. If the daughter had left around 30 seconds earlier, things could have been much different.

I've skim read through some of the posts on here. This, and other attacks, is not the result of individuals believing in a certain religion. This is the evil work of sadistic individuals with a twisted ideology. It is wrong to tarnish one religious group as a result of these incidents.

Sent from my D6603 using Tapatalk

Colin, it's hard to write what I'm going to say because words are treacherous things and how I write it can be interpreted differently from what I intend.

So with that out of the way and with me have accused Jizzbomb as seeing all Muslims as a threat, what I believe is that yeah, you cannot tar every Muslim as a terrorist, however, what you cannot do is entirely separate the religion from those who very clearly claim to act on behalf of their twisted interpretation of what their religion demands of them.

My own belief is that all religions in varying ways, instruct their adherents in a way that can be interpreted as making it "the truth" and all others simple blasphemers who deserve no mercy. I loathe religion at such times.

[BaggyTrousers]

These murderers knowing they were going to kill children are depraved. Can't imagine what the people impacted directly have gone through and are going through.

Shan, this evening I was out practising the ancient art of bending the elbow and haveing a swally. I was with a couple of Man Utd fans watching the match & of course, the bomber came up & both lads said more or less what you have said. And how could anyone think that way?

Now, of course, I agree with your sentiments, but It is always as well top have a look at things not just from one viewpoint, but above below and around it in 360 degrees.

I was able to tell the guys that the Royal Air Force had bombed Syria on 69 of the first 99 days of this year, do we for one second believe that they are not killing families including young children as innocent as young Saffie Roussos?

I would bet most people didn't realise that we are still bombing Syria 3 days out of 3, it just doesn;t make the news anymore. Some gobshite on an Ulternative IS forum probably gurned within the last week about innocent kids being blown up. Our anguish & outrage is probably mirrored in Iraq & Syria and has done since we and others started bombing 3 yeasrs ago.

[bazzaj]

You've got a couple of things in common with the Manchester bomber bazaaj.

You both don't want a liberal society and you are both wrong.

Interesting that you say I'm wrong Mike yet CIMANs brilliant post above echoes my sentiments exactly though 10 times as eloquently put but you didn't call him out.

Also you chose to ignore I was the one on here that refused to believe this was not the work of a lone Wolf and there was a more prevalent network.
Looks like I'm proved right in that regard yet you didn't mention that either

You are confusimg my rejection of modern leftist elitist liberalism with actual liberalism which are poles apart.
The whole modern concept I find to be full of hypocrisy and a perversion of actual liberalism.

The liberals ideals are the stuff of utopia but when you put these evil wrongdoers in to the mix they take advantage of our values.
I do not believe a liberal solution can be found to such a problem.

I find it worrying that intelligent people refuse to see there is a problem within a particular group of people as they need to cling to a set of values that defines them.
To say otherwise would be a contradiction to their values which as it defines them, is effectively a rejection of themselves.

That's the difference with me I don't aline myself to any particular group of ideals or people as I find it limits thinking.and clouds judgement.
No better example of that than in Northern Irish politics.

This is of some frustration to people who are always desperate to categorise. but at least I'm capable of seeing the wood for the trees.

[BaggyTrousers]

You've got a couple of things in common with the Manchester bomber bazaaj.

You both don't want a liberal society and you are both wrong.

Interesting that you say I'm wrong Mike yet CIMANs brilliant post above echoes my sentiments exactly though 10 times as eloquently put but you didn't call him out.

Also you chose to ignore I was the one on here that refused to believe this was not the work of a lone Wolf and there was a more prevalent network.
Looks like I'm proved right in that regard yet you didn't mention that either

You are confusimg my rejection of modern leftist elitist liberalism with actual liberalism which are poles apart.
The whole modern concept I find to be full of hypocrisy and a perversion of actual liberalism.

The liberals ideals are the stuff of utopia but when you put these evil wrongdoers in to the mix they take advantage of our values.
I do not believe a liberal solution can be found to such a problem.

I find it worrying that intelligent people refuse to see there is a problem within a particular group of people as they need to cling to a set of values that defines them.
To say otherwise would be a contradiction to their values which as it defines them, is effectively a rejection of themselves.

That's the difference with me I don't aline myself to any particular group of ideals or people as I find it limits thinking.and clouds judgement.
No better example of that than in Northern Irish politics.

This is of some frustration to people who are always desperate to categorise. but at least I'm capable of seeing the wood for the trees.

Juzzbomb, this wordy post can be condensed into two sentences:

1) I (you) said he was not a lone wolf and everybody else said he was.
2) if it weren't for so-called liberal values we would sort this out in minutes.

Both utterances mildly insane not to mention incorrect as a little thought and research would demonstrate.

What makes these motherfuc'kers so different from your standard IRA or ETA terrorist is that they wanted to live to see their aims brought about, whereas these clowns believe they are going to a better place and have no interest in surviving , hence they are far more difficult to frustrate.

I say frustrate Jizzer because only a fool thinks it is possible to prevent this type of terrorism. For example, let's say we put you in charge and you said loud and clear that the entire family of such bombers would be executed, you have a rush of volunteers, not only would they but their entire family would have a free pass to paradise.

Maybe you'd tell us wussy washy namby pamby liberals quite how you would stop them?

[solidarity]

As with most things, terrorism is in the eye of the beholder. When we do it, it's a necessary evil; when you do it, it's subhuman barbarism. Bombing Dresden etc in WW2? Naplam in Vietnam? Enhanced interrogation techniques? Anti-Mau Mau tactics in Kenya? And of course our own, our very own, 'legitimate targets'. There is also the chilling logic that believes that ends do justify means and the pragmatism that simply uses whatever works. Anyone seen a moral compass around somewhere? I'm sure there was one lying about here.

[Kofi Annan]

[solidarity]

If you want an example of Neill's point above about the difference between journalism and academic research, have a look at the HARDtalk interview with Gilles Kepel at: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006mg2m/episodes/guide.

[mikerob]

Bazzaj - you are just playing semantic games talking about "modern leftist elitist liberalism" and "actual liberalism".

Let's face it, you will just decide what you like and what you don't like based upon your own prejudices and if you don't like it, then you will call it "modern leftist elitist" and not "actual".

[CIMANFOREVER]

If you want an example of Neill's point above about the difference between journalism and academic research, have a look at the HARDtalk interview with Gilles Kepel at: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006mg2m/episodes/guide.

quick question to both Neil and yourself; what's the academic researchers "Null hypotheses" regarding counteracting these radicalised individuals and the wider fundamentalist strain of Islam then? If theyr'e publishing any academic research, they must have one/some.