A new low…?

[Tap+Go]

As a Leinster fan, I am desperately worried about our dominance at the moment. It is no good for us if the other provinces cannot keep up. If, in fact, we damage the game in the rest of the country.
The core of the issue is the extraordinary development of players in a dozen or so schools. Keenan, Doris and Ringrose from Blackrock. Ryan, Kelleher and Baird from St Michaels. Sheehan and Beirne from Clongowes. Then one player each from other elite schools, Sexton,Healy, JOB, Porter, and JVDF. And I am only speaking of international level.
The other provinces need to get their schools and youth teams to a similar level. As a short term fix, I would not mind all 18 year old prospects for the Leinster academy being directed to the other provinces for two seasons. I know this interferes with educational choices but it might work. Alternatively, move the current u20s team en bloc away from Leinster. Imagine if Ulster had Prendergast at 10. Or if McErlean could return to Ulster.

We do not have a prviate school system up here so the cash isnt there, and numbers arent either. The rugby programmes at the likes of St Michaels are a pipe dream for most schools here. Also, the selction process for those that go to underage Ulster training is massively flawed. In fact the underage system is extremely poor, and merely builds egos in some and disenfranchises others.

How is the selection process massively flawed? A few years back certainly but think they’ve made good advances there and with the underage programme as a whole. Lots of kids participating in Ulster underage training each week with some very good coaches. Main issue for me is driving quality coaching & athletic development out to more in schools & clubs. Outside the big schools there is a massive drop off in quality in both, while they again are massively behind the private funded Dublin schools who are basically running mini academies.

[Lurgan Lad]

There are way too many games in the URC that you know who is going to win before a ball is kicked, has to be addressed to maintain interest. The biggest negative of the draft system in Ireland would be does it disincentivise the four provinces to 'develop their own', or does it all then come under the IRFU directly. You could also argue it destroys the identity of each team/province and poorly run (for a long time now us) don't lose out as they continue to get an influx of potentially good players.
I'm not sure I would go for a draft, I would have the development of youth under the IRFU directly and let the players make their choices. I would let the provinces fight it out a bit more salary wise within defined salary constraints for each province (and benefactors if they want to top that up), it feels like the IRFU is subsidising Leinster (and to a degree Munster) at the expense of the other two provinces because more of their players are on central contracts.

[kingofthehill]

There are way too many games in the URC that you know who is going to win before a ball is kicked, has to be addressed to maintain interest. The biggest negative of the draft system in Ireland would be does it disincentivise the four provinces to 'develop their own', or does it all then come under the IRFU directly. You could also argue it destroys the identity of each team/province and poorly run (for a long time now us) don't lose out as they continue to get an influx of potentially good players.
I'm not sure I would go for a draft, I would have the development of youth under the IRFU directly and let the players make their choices. I would let the provinces fight it out a bit more salary wise within defined salary constraints for each province (and benefactors if they want to top that up), it feels like the IRFU is subsidising Leinster (and to a degree Munster) at the expense of the other two provinces because more of their players are on central contracts.

If you don’t have a draft of some sort then too many players will go by the way side.

Northerner schools outside of CCB, MCB and RBAI have pretty much no competition unless they cross the border. The gap is going to get bigger as the Dublin schools don’t have to travel outside of Dublin to get genuine competition.

Staffing is the huge issue within schools and that includes the Belfast schools.


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[allezlesverres]

The only way the IRFU/Ulster Branch could hope to start to improve the school system would be to invest in school coaching programmes in partnership with some schools. A small number of schools would massively benefit from this and for it to work kids would need to be able to change schools if their ability was such that they could thrive in the intense school development pathway. That would spell the end of the schools cup as there would effectively be 2 or 3 super schools with massively overachieving teams. But those schools may eventually start to be genuine competition for the leinster superschools.

I think there is a fair amount of inter school transferring going on in Leinster already so this isn't reinventing the wheel entirely. Player movement would be encouraged through bursaries perhaps.

Then Ulster would be guaranteed to have several decent teams worth of players to compete for academy development contracts etc.

This is probably a terrible idea to be honest I was thinking it up as I typed it.

[HammerTime]

Schools coaches in Ulster to me mostly seem to be teachers who also do a bit of coaching. Most I’m sure are doing a good job but it would hardly be high end I’d have thought. With the exchange rate between the UK and South Africa ridiculously good in our favour surely there are plenty of good coaches who’d happily come over and quadruple their wages. Could act as directors of rugby to oversea the local coaches and completely professionalise each setup. (To a degree … they are young pups at the end of the day). Could even split their time between grammar school, high school and maybe even club to make it economically viable. The playing population and thus coaching population in SA is off the scale. Say you gathered up 8 coaches Any interested schools could be subsidised by UR to secure a post.

[kingofthehill]

The only way the IRFU/Ulster Branch could hope to start to improve the school system would be to invest in school coaching programmes in partnership with some schools. A small number of schools would massively benefit from this and for it to work kids would need to be able to change schools if their ability was such that they could thrive in the intense school development pathway. That would spell the end of the schools cup as there would effectively be 2 or 3 super schools with massively overachieving teams. But those schools may eventually start to be genuine competition for the leinster superschools.

I think there is a fair amount of inter school transferring going on in Leinster already so this isn't reinventing the wheel entirely. Player movement would be encouraged through bursaries perhaps.

Then Ulster would be guaranteed to have several decent teams worth of players to compete for academy development contracts etc.

This is probably a terrible idea to be honest I was thinking it up as I typed it.

It doesn't happen as often as people think because if you move schools, you can't play for their 1st XV within two years of joining the new school. This rule was introduced when Roscrea won the schools cup in 2015 with a team that had mostly been brought in from outside the school. Despite having only 150 students, it was still an incredible achievement.

When Ulster schools play against southern schools, the southern schools are six months older. This means that the southern schools have a significant advantage because their JCT year group is essentially the 5th form group from the Ulster sides, but they still play against Ulster medallion teams throughout the year. The southern system works from January to January, instead of July to July.

If you want to see improvements across the whole of Ireland, there should be an All-Ireland schools competition that runs from September to December before the provincial schools cup.

The competition should be divided into two groups, with teams ranked within their province at the start of the year: three teams from Ulster, six from Leinster, three from Munster, and two from Connacht. The competition should run for seven weekends, with a final week.
Block fixtures should be organized across all school age groups (A/B/C), with each team playing three home matches and three away.

While this may be costly, I believe that TV stations and sponsors would be interested.

Teams that are not playing in the All-Ireland competition should have a setup within their province for the months that the other competition goes on for.
While this would require changes to the yearly fixture list, it is important to note that any fixture list a school provides is ‘generally’ a work of fiction and is decided on a weekly basis.

In my humble opinion, the Ulster pathways in schools are generally not effective. Boys who are involved with Ulster get enough rugby in school, mainly in the "big three" schools, and don't need to spend their evenings doing additional skills and training from 14 to 18 years old, let alone developing an ego.

To improve coaching in schools, teachers ( I stress teachers and not outside coaches) need to have knowledge and coaching ability. This requires proper compensation for coaches within schools. The private schools in Dublin, for instance, are paying teachers/coaches between 10k to 100k a year (with Castleknock Director of Rugby being the highest paid as rumours go). This compensation is through each year group in the school and not just for the 1st XV coaches. Schools in Ulster cannot remotely compete with this level of investment.

I don't know enough about club rugby to comment, but it is worth noting that the number of players who come from underage clubs and progress to the professional level is quite low in the North. Leinster has a few players, like Furlong, Frawley, Osborne, and O'Brien, who came through the club system.


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[HammerTime]

I did wonder why each provinces schools cup winners didn’t play in an all Ireland decider.

[kingofthehill]

I did wonder why each provinces schools cup winners didn’t play in an all Ireland decider.

Too close to exams to have rugby going on for another month.

An all Ireland cup before Christmas is the way to go.


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[Tap+Go]

In my humble opinion, the Ulster pathways in schools are generally not effective. Boys who are involved with Ulster get enough rugby in school, mainly in the "big three" schools, and don't need to spend their evenings doing additional skills and training from 14 to 18 years old, let alone developing an ego.

To improve coaching in schools, teachers ( I stress teachers and not outside coaches) need to have knowledge and coaching ability. This requires proper compensation for coaches within schools. The private schools in Dublin, for instance, are paying teachers/coaches between 10k to 100k a year (with Castleknock Director of Rugby being the highest paid as rumours go). This compensation is through each year group in the school and not just for the 1st XV coaches. Schools in Ulster cannot remotely compete with this level of investment.

I don't know enough about club rugby to comment, but it is worth noting that the number of players who come from underage clubs and progress to the professional level is quite low in the North. Leinster has a few players, like Furlong, Frawley, Osborne, and O'Brien, who came through the club system.


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Many of the boys from the big schools involved in Ulster underage training don’t regularly attend the weekly sessions due to school commitments. For those not from the big schools or from a clubs background these are very valuable in terms of upskilling. Time invested & coaching make a huge difference to underage players - you can have all the talent in the world but if you are training one night a week coached by a parent volunteer & playing against weaker opposition each week it’s going to be hard to break through against the those from a big school.

Lots of criticism of the Ulster underage programmes but I think they’ve made great strides. At U16 level you have nominated schools & clubs players going to their respective regional development squads for approx 6 months throughout the season which is whittled down through training assessment / regional matches & blitz’s to a group for the summer training programme. Post completing over the summer this will be reviewed for those to attend the U17 in season programme with this ongoing review occurring through to summer & in season programmes until u18s when their will be u18 clubs, u18 clubs & schools & u18 schools teams selected for fixtures/interpros. Ultimately then these pathways will all combine with the best players selected at u19 level. Players can continually exit or enter/re-enter the programme with scouting by development coaches or other team coaches happening at fixtures regularly throughout the season. This has saw several players who were missed at regional development squad level or maybe exited the pathway brought in at later stages. As well as this there is the NTS/PTS programme for those with the highest potential with extra gym & pitch sessions for then weekly at Newforge - again this group is continually reassessed. Throughout the underage development coaches who head up the u18 clubs /schools & u19 teams are involved in the training sessions weekly - giving them the opportunity to track players progress while also giving players multiple touch points with the guys who are ultimately picking the teams down the line. For those involved in the summer programmes especially at U18/U19 level it’s basically like being a professional for the summer as they train for 4 or 5 hours 3 times a week generally with this including nutrition / gym & athletic development / video analysis / position specific work (scrum / line out / phase play / kick / pass etc).

When you consider all that the system is pretty good but the problem statement doesn’t change as you just can’t compete against private funded schools in Leinster where boys are getting that near professional level of quality daily from a young age. It’s definitely not an even playing field and I think Ulster need to try and cast the net as wide as possible while trying to upskill club & schools coaches. In saying that as the Leinster schools system gets stronger & more & more money is pumped in the gulf is likely to continue to grow - scary thought in terms of Ulster developed players & where our academy players are likely to come from.

[Dave]

A draft system may seem cold but it will easier on the palette.

[Sue Dename]

One of the many problems is the lack of connection in Ulster between schools and clubs.
For the past number of years in the Leinster Schools Cup final program, all the players are listed in positions 1-15 and beside their name is the club they are affiliated with. The bond is being built at the source. Of this year's finalists in Ulster I'd be surprised if any of the players in the two squads have any club affiliation.

Around 10-12 years ago Ulster ran underage rugby at u19, u17, u15 etc age brackets, with the purpose of the u19 playing at 14:30 on a Saturday so they could mix and drink with adult peers in the clubhouse afterwards. When the analysis was done around conversion from u19 to adult around 63% of players remained within the club system. The clubs en-mass hated this age bracket system and voted to return to the U18 age grade, when the analysis was done of conversion to adult players (ex u18) around 46% remained in the game.

There are two areas where Ulster have lost control of the situation to the detriment of our local game.

[nonplussed]

As a Leinster fan, I am desperately worried about our dominance at the moment. It is no good for us if the other provinces cannot keep up. If, in fact, we damage the game in the rest of the country.
The core of the issue is the extraordinary development of players in a dozen or so schools. Keenan, Doris and Ringrose from Blackrock. Ryan, Kelleher and Baird from St Michaels. Sheehan and Beirne from Clongowes. Then one player each from other elite schools, Sexton,Healy, JOB, Porter, and JVDF. And I am only speaking of international level.
The other provinces need to get their schools and youth teams to a similar level. As a short term fix, I would not mind all 18 year old prospects for the Leinster academy being directed to the other provinces for two seasons. I know this interferes with educational choices but it might work. Alternatively, move the current u20s team en bloc away from Leinster. Imagine if Ulster had Prendergast at 10. Or if McErlean could return to Ulster.

We do not have a prviate school system up here so the cash isnt there, and numbers arent either. The rugby programmes at the likes of St Michaels are a pipe dream for most schools here. Also, the selction process for those that go to underage Ulster training is massively flawed. In fact the underage system is extremely poor, and merely builds egos in some and disenfranchises others.

How is the selection process massively flawed? A few years back certainly but think they’ve made good advances there and with the underage programme as a whole. Lots of kids participating in Ulster underage training each week with some very good coaches. Main issue for me is driving quality coaching & athletic development out to more in schools & clubs. Outside the big schools there is a massive drop off in quality in both, while they again are massively behind the private funded Dublin schools who are basically running mini academies.

Selection from schools start in 3rd year, but rarely is someone selected after this age point should they develop later than others, however the Branch have this year put in a ID system to identify and select late bloomers, but it is my understanding that this will be targetted in areas of need, Ie. if an intake is low in props then the ID system will look to fill that, which in my book precludes other talented players who develop later than others.

The club system is much weaker interms of coaching and recently the Club U18s were well beaten by a low end regional school first XV, who were majority 5th years, which tells me that club coaching is one of the biggest problems.

I have 1 son in a big rugby school and one in a regional grammar, who is also a club player, and the coaching and encouragment they receiving is worlds apart. In my humble opinion UR are narrowing the pool to early and should look at increasing coaching standards at youth club level and regional schools. We are a small province already split along religious lines and Secondary v Grammar, so to narrow this pool early is a massive problem. This coupled with the sweetymice filling many kids head that tell them they're the next Rory Best just because they beet selected at underage means that many quit the game if they don't 'make it.'

[nonplussed]

As a Leinster fan, I am desperately worried about our dominance at the moment. It is no good for us if the other provinces cannot keep up. If, in fact, we damage the game in the rest of the country.
The core of the issue is the extraordinary development of players in a dozen or so schools. Keenan, Doris and Ringrose from Blackrock. Ryan, Kelleher and Baird from St Michaels. Sheehan and Beirne from Clongowes. Then one player each from other elite schools, Sexton,Healy, JOB, Porter, and JVDF. And I am only speaking of international level.
The other provinces need to get their schools and youth teams to a similar level. As a short term fix, I would not mind all 18 year old prospects for the Leinster academy being directed to the other provinces for two seasons. I know this interferes with educational choices but it might work. Alternatively, move the current u20s team en bloc away from Leinster. Imagine if Ulster had Prendergast at 10. Or if McErlean could return to Ulster.

We do not have a prviate school system up here so the cash isnt there, and numbers arent either. The rugby programmes at the likes of St Michaels are a pipe dream for most schools here. Also, the selction process for those that go to underage Ulster training is massively flawed. In fact the underage system is extremely poor, and merely builds egos in some and disenfranchises others.

How is the selection process massively flawed? A few years back certainly but think they’ve made good advances there and with the underage programme as a whole. Lots of kids participating in Ulster underage training each week with some very good coaches. Main issue for me is driving quality coaching & athletic development out to more in schools & clubs. Outside the big schools there is a massive drop off in quality in both, while they again are massively behind the private funded Dublin schools who are basically running mini academies.

Selection from schools start in 3rd year, but rarely is someone selected after this age point should they develop later than others, however the Branch have this year put in a ID system to identify and select late bloomers, but it is my understanding that this will be targetted in areas of need, Ie. if an intake is low in props then the ID system will look to fill that, which in my book precludes other talented players who develop later than others.

The club system is much weaker interms of coaching and recently the Club U18s were well beaten by a low end regional school first XV, who were majority 5th years, which tells me that club coaching is one of the biggest problems.

I have 1 son in a big rugby school and one in a regional grammar, both play rugby, and the regional son is also a club player; the coaching and encouragment they receive is worlds apart. In my humble opinion UR are narrowing the pool to early and should look at increasing coaching standards at youth club level and regional schools in order to broaden the stadrad and size of playing ppol. We are a small province already split along religious lines and Secondary v Grammar, so to narrow this pool early is a massive problem. This coupled with the sweetymice filling many kids head that tell them they're the next Rory Best just because they beet selected at underage means that many quit the game if they don't 'make it.'

[HammerTime]

Ulster core at the heart of Dundee University’s drive for National Trophy Final glory – via https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/spor ... 12221.html

There is something fundamentally wrong when a top young player turns down the potential to play for Ulster and Ireland to go study in Scotland. Wrong on his part on why he wouldn’t want that and wrong on ulsters part for not blowing Smoke up his ar$e from a young age to try and keep him here. Surely Queens would have been more than happy to have him if he was playing at a high level underage. I despair.

[waggonsroll]

Ulster core at the heart of Dundee University’s drive for National Trophy Final glory – via https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/spor ... 12221.html

There is something fundamentally wrong when a top young player turns down the potential to play for Ulster and Ireland to go study in Scotland. Wrong on his part on why he wouldn’t want that and wrong on ulsters part for not blowing Smoke up his ar$e from a young age to try and keep him here. Surely Queens would have been more than happy to have him if he was playing at a high level underage. I despair.

This only considers the rugby playing aspect. There are many courses offered at university in England and Scotland that are either not available here or are considered to be better academically. Individuals might also wish to be away from home. It should be Ulster's aim to identify them and have them back for summer training sessions.

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