Declan Kidney – the amazing diminishing rugby coach

[darkside lightside]

D/L - Despite not necessarily agreeing with your anti-Kidney rants I do think of you as a sane person who puts thoughtful posts on here, but what you have written above is just ridiculous. If Ireland were to win the RWC, do you think anyone on the island (bar you it seems) would give a toss about the "unacceptable" defeat to england a few weeks ago or loss to scotland a month or 2 ago?? Of course it doesn't erase the past, but using your logic, if the great Robbie Deans wins the world cup it won't erase the defeats against Samoa, Scotland and England the Wallabies have had in the past 12 months.

I completely agree that one swallow doesn't make a summer and our campaign should be evaluated at the end of the tournament not after today, but you're really sounding like sour grapes here. If you expected us to run the aussies close or even win, then why the endless rants about all the warm up performances?? If we won all of them by 40 oints and got a thumping today would you have been happier?

We've lost to Scotland - so have SA and Aus in recent times and england could only draw with them. Wales haven't beaten any SH teams in a while and France lost to Italy and shipped 50 points against the wallabies a few months ago. What does it all show? That there are lots of teams capable of beating each other but also losing to each other. The AB's are a step up from the rest but that doesn't meant to say they'll win the tournament (just like in 2003 or 2007 when no-one could seriously say that overall, the Wallabies or France were better than them, but on the particular, day/night they were.

You seem to be demanding a consistency from Ireland which is quite frankly unrealistic. Pick a 1st and 2nd world XV in your mind and see how many Irishmen get into them? By the standards you're setting Kidney you must be picking a fair few, but I'd love to know who they all are.

I would have thought a simple well done today but let's wait and see some consistency to kick on from this beofre going overboard would have sufficed, rather than putting up the kind of defence of your previous views a seasoned politican would have been proud of.

Before I get started, can I say that I also think you are sane and write thoughtful posts

I completely disagree that I write any ‘anti-Kidney rants’ – I write ‘anti-Ireland-being-crap rants’ and when DK is at the helm, the buck stops with him.

Secondly, unless you are getting together with Marty McFly in order to fly back to Feb 2010 to start rewriting recent Irish rugby history, then what I’m saying is self-evident – even if we win the RWC (which I think we could have the players for, but I still don’t think we have the head or backs coach for), it won’t changed the fact that even after the 2 wins at the world cup, we have still lost more games than we have won in 2010 and 2011; that we needed a last min dg to undeservedly beat Italy last time out; that even most of our wins have been pretty empty uninspiring performances (eg Samoa, Italy & England in ’10, USA a couple of weeks ago); I could go on…

Sour grapes?? I’m an Ireland fan – I’m delighted that Ireland won... However I’m not going to turf all my critical faculties out the window, just because I’m happy about the last game I’ve seen... (and in that regard I’m different to most Irish rugby journalists..) I expected us to run the Aussies close, because I think Ireland are good – we have good players, and we should be beating everybody, or running them close, as a matter of course. That’s why I was complaining about the warm-up matches – because we were absolutely dross, playing well below our capabilities. Am I missing something?? Is that not really obvious??

I’m not demanding ‘unrealistic consistency’ from Ireland – I’m asking that our coaches continue to evolve our play in the various facets of the game to enable us to come up with the performances and ultimately results that our talent merits – and even after the Australia game, you can only unequivocally say that Les Kiss has done this.

[Neil F]

this is a joke right? so DK has been setting us up to look rubbish for 2 years, in order to take everyone by surprise at the RWC

Wouldn't be so quick to deride Shan's point because I think he makes a very valid one. It's not about luring other teams and coaches into a false sense of security but who is to say what it was that Kidney wanted to get from the warm-up games? And who is to say that he didn't get it? Ireland didn't get the wins that would have been nice in those games and, from what I understand, were utterly appalling against England but was Kidney's specific focus on winning, or did he have other outcomes in mind, like fitness or hardiness, with wins being nothing but a nice bonus if it came?

I realise it's probably not so easy to defend a fairly poor 6 Nations; then again, despite not playing at all well, Ireland were literally a Sean Cronin knock-on and one appalling refereeing decision away from a Grand Slam but it was obvious in the Autumn that Ireland were trying new things. Perhaps they didn't work, we'll see, but they were tried and had they come off, they'd have given other strings to bows. The point here is not that Kidney has been getting Ireland to pretend they are a poor outfit but there is every chance that there have been other objectives in the past season, or season and a half that could well have been achieved yet won't become apparent until the next few weeks have passed by.

Like Shan, I will reserve judgement until Ireland have won more than just one game against Australia and I'd suggest that a number of other posters should take the same stance. This win could be a fluke by a team on a downward trajectory but it could also be a win that opens the path to a World Cup semi-final and more, which is something Ireland have never before achieved. Let's wait and see.

[Rooster]

this is a joke right? so DK has been setting us up to look rubbish for 2 years, in order to take everyone by surprise at the RWC

Wouldn't be so quick to deride Shan's point because I think he makes a very valid one. It's not about luring other teams and coaches into a false sense of security but who is to say what it was that Kidney wanted to get from the warm-up games? And who is to say that he didn't get it? Ireland didn't get the wins that would have been nice in those games and, from what I understand, were utterly appalling against England but was Kidney's specific focus on winning, or did he have other outcomes in mind, like fitness or hardiness, with wins being nothing but a nice bonus if it came?

I realise it's probably not so easy to defend a fairly poor 6 Nations; then again, despite not playing at all well, Ireland were literally a Sean Cronin knock-on and one appalling refereeing decision away from a Grand Slam but it was obvious in the Autumn that Ireland were trying new things. Perhaps they didn't work, we'll see, but they were tried and had they come off, they'd have given other strings to bows. The point here is not that Kidney has been getting Ireland to pretend they are a poor outfit but there is every chance that there have been other objectives in the past season, or season and a half that could well have been achieved yet won't become apparent until the next few weeks have passed by.

Like Shan, I will reserve judgement until Ireland have won more than just one game against Australia and I'd suggest that a number of other posters should take the same stance. This win could be a fluke by a team on a downward trajectory but it could also be a win that opens the path to a World Cup semi-final and more, which is something Ireland have never before achieved. Let's wait and see.

[Bart S]

D/L - I am not trying to rewrite rugby history. All I am picking up on is your point that even if hypothetcially Ireland won the world cup, it wouldn't erase the past (factually correct) but from what I can glean from your posts, even achieving that wouldn't refute your criticism of Kidney.

When people think of Jake White - what do they remember him on and what is he judged on? Winning the world cup or finishing bottom of the Tri Nations and suffering some poor defeats to NH sides? As I've said as well, if Australia win it, will Robbie Deans defeat against Samoa or Scotland be counted against him when his tenure is ultimately judged?

As I've said repeatedly I wouldn't expect you to nor believe that you should suddenly embrace Kidney as the greatest thing since sliced bread, as we should reserve any judgement until we see how our overall world cup goes. What I just cannot believe though is your insinuation that even if Ireland were somehow to win the world cup (which would mean a GS and a world cup in Kidney's 4 year tenure) you wouldn't regard his tenure as a success??

I didn't like the abject performance in the build up games any more than you probably did BUT if having these tougher matches (regardless of results) got us better prepared and helped to deliver wins such as last weekend, then I'd happily take that trade off.

[Shan]

this is a joke right? so DK has been setting us up to look rubbish for 2 years, in order to take everyone by surprise at the RWC

(just in case it's a serious question, it's a pile of sh1te)

Thinking outside the box DL. You should try it. Not everything is laid on for your eyes to see. The main point is about the targetting of specific goals and doing whatever it takes to get there. I'm asking whether people think this is possible. I assumed most people would give reasonable answers as to why this might be true or isn't as Neil did.

When I said "manages to convince" I didn't mean he set out to try to make people think we were useless. I meant that his methods mean that it is difficult for outsiders to pick up exactly what he is looking to do.

[cables]

Info. v SH superpowers in SH.

Australia in 1979 at Ballymore and the Cricket Ground. Coach N. Murphy
S.A. - Never
N.Z. - Never

R.C. O'Donnell
J.J. Moloney
C.M.H. Gibson
P.P. McNaughton
T.J. Kennedy
S.O. Campbell
C.S. Patterson
P.A. Orr
C.F. Fitzgerald
G.A.J. McLoughlin
M.I. Keane
H.W. Steele
J.F. Slattery (Capt.)
W.P. Duggan
J.B. O'Driscoll
F.N.G. Ennis (Replaced O'Donnell)

R.C. O'Donnell
J.J. Moloney
C.M.H. Gibson
P.P. McNaughton
T.J. Kennedy
S.O. Campbell
C.S. Patterson
P.A. Orr
C.F. Fitzgerald
G.A.J. McLoughlin
M.I. Keane
H.W. Steele
J.F. Slattery (Capt.)
W.P. Duggan
J.B. O'Driscoll

[Jockster]

RHH---love your post ++++++++++a lot. All I can add is that the Italians will smell blood and will really fancy an upset against us to get into the QFs---I predict that that match will be the toughest we've had for a long time.

[rocky]

RHH, that is one of the best posts ever on this board - critical but constructive and extremely insightful. I applaud you and agree 100%. Cables - very interesting but I think S O Campbell got too much credit and Colin Patterson too little (and the pack) for those two wins over what was a very good Aussie side.
Cheers,

Rocky.

[Shan]

Excellent stuff RHH.

[lovesthehardground]

RHH---love your post a lot. +1

All I can add is that the Italians will smell blood and will really fancy an upset against us to get into the QFs---I predict that that match will be the toughest we've had for a long time.

+2

[BaggyTrousers]

Excellent post RHH and a true statement of facts rather than a distortion which happens to serve a purpose. There are 2 things I would add, one I believe important the other nitpicking so lets get it out of the way first (HC Munster v BOPB 06 Toulouse 08) so irrelevant to your post I am embarrassed to point it out but I thought I'd save Cables the bother.

More importantly, on your point of one of DK's supposed flaws: too much loyalty to the likes of Fitz & TOL.

I would suggest that it is a position he takes in a pragmatic way with players he sees something in despite there lack of form, borne I believe from an extremely pragmatic realisation that his talent pool is small, not in comparison to the 2nd level of "top tier" nations (Wales, Scotland, Italy, Argies etc) but the 1st level of it against whom we seek to compete and become a genuine part of (NZ, Oz, SA, England,France).

Unlike the coaches of the major teams, with the possible exception of Robbie Deans, he needs to maximise whatever he can get out of every player when in reality he has many positions within the team where there simply isn't an international class 2nd player.

DL, I completely accept that you don't intend your many "Kidney/Anti-Kidney rants" to be anti-Kidney, rather you are arguing for better standards. I disagree with much of what you say & sadly also with what I believe to be unrealistic expectations but I also genuinely believe your heart is in the right place. The problem is that there is little doubt that your "rants" are perceived as anti-Kidney, intended or not, rather than a piece of objective criticism.

[Jackie Brown]

Why do people think we have a smaller talent pool than the Aussies?

[darkside lightside]

As ever a fine post from RHH. I have tried loads of times to make my starting position clear, but I’ll do it again – I think Kidney’s record is extremely impressive for Munster and Ireland in 2009, I think he is clearly a knowledgeable and astute rugby brain, and in the past he has successfully built coaching teams. I wasn’t a fan of his appointment in the first place, because I would have preferred an outsider. I think some Irish fans, particularly Leinster fans who don’t remember his time there with relish, do have a problem with him, no matter what – I don’t. I’m not a malcontent, I just believe that in sports, as in any walk of life, it is possible for guys to be extremely successful for a period of time, and then unsuccessful for a time (think of Arsene Wenger right now for example...)

(I also don’t entirely agree with the level of adversity supposedly faced by Munster and Ireland – it was after all a pretty star-studded Munster side as well which finally beat Toulouse in ’06, and by that stage a pretty battle-hardened and experienced Munster; and as RHH says, the Slam followed years of under-achievement. That’s not to detract for these achievements, just to put what in my view is a more realistic spin on them)

Past success isn’t necessarily a guarantor of present or future success and I think that if fans, pundits and not least the coach’s employers continue to hark back to achievements in the earlier part of a coach’s career to mitigate shortfalls in th epresent is a dangerous and complacent path to go down. So I don’t disrespect or discount the success he has had in the past, but he, like the rest of us, has to be accountable for what he is doing in the here and now. And in my opinion, dating back to 2010 (when I started this thread, so I’m not a johnny-come-lately ‘malcontent’) is that what he has been doing is not good enough.

For example I don’t think it’s good enough to say that he is aware of the impotence of Ireland’s backs under Gaffney, but pragmatically works around it – sack Gaffney and replace him! Or over-rule him! Tell him that having our backs lying flat, not bringing our dangerous runners (Bowe, Trimble, Kearney) intyo the game, unless getting tackled into touch counts, is not good enough! His main supposed strength is not as a hands-on coach, but as the builder of successful teams of hands-on coaches – so surely to persist with Gaffney while things clearly aren’t working is a failing on his part?

I think he shouldn’t be any different from any of the rest of us – take a salesman whose target is £400k of income, he gets £500k in his first year and is the star of the show, but then £250k for the next 2 years – in the real world would he get a pat on the back and a contract extension? Or a boot up the ar$e and a final warning?

[BaggyTrousers]

Why do people think we have a smaller talent pool than the Aussies?

Lets make this quick, they have 5 professional teams we have 4. Simples.

Haven't done an in depth analysis Jackie but I would guess that our proportion of non-nataionals is also larger but open to correction.

[Jackie Brown]

Why do people think we have a smaller talent pool than the Aussies?

Lets make this quick, they have 5 professional teams we have 4. Simples.

Haven't done an in depth analysis Jackie but I would guess that our proportion of non-nataionals is also larger but open to correction.

Ireland have more registered players (at all levels) approx 101000 compared with 87000**

True we have fewer professional teams but Ireland being so close to Europe we probably have more eligible players playing in other countries.#

Either way there is probably little difference in our player pools compared with the likes of France, England, SA or NZ.

**Taken from wikipedia so no doubt it's incorrect