A little bit of politics folks`

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Shan
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Re: A little bit of politics folks`

Post by Shan »

Dave wrote: They should have been permitted a referendum. The motion would likely have been rejected according to a recent poll. Although polls are not worth a damn these days.
Correct Dave. Spain has made a right ballix of this. Once you show you are prepared to indulge in state sanctioned violence against your own peaceful citizens it is impossible to again claim the moral high ground. If they had simply ignored it the likelihood is that everyone would just be getting on with their lives today with the status quo not under threat but a point made to ensure no complacency from the state going forward.
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Re: A little bit of politics folks`

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BR wrote:
Dave wrote:
Dublin4 wrote:I wouldn't disagree with anything Baggy has said on this.
Reading El Pais online over recent days, I am struck by the unanimity of Spanish opinion.
Basically, the Catalans have had huge autonomy and home rule for decades. They are among the most prosperous people in Spain with respect for their culture and language.

They are not repressed. The rest of Spain has no time for their campaign.

The other factor is that half or more of the population of Catalonia doesn't want independence. Many of these people are Spanish speakers.

There is no comparison to situations 100 years ago closer to home just in case anyone thinks there is.
Not being repressed is no basis for dismissing their ability to determine this question of independence for themselves. Although, there is a look of repression about the place this week. As far as I can gather all the regions in Spain share a fair bit of autonomy, as well as Barcelona and Madrid.

They should have been permitted a referendum. The motion would likely have been rejected according to a recent poll. Although polls are not worth a damn these days.

Spain has no time for their campaign, which is understandable but they would need to adjust their attitude. The Catalan region provides a huge chunk of coin for the Spanish economy. The more marginalised they feel in Catalonia, the greater the cries for independence.
The trouble with constitutional referenda is defining which sub-nations have the authority to secede and which don't. OK when it is regulated and defined at the time of union (for example, Texas) less so where the entity has undergone various changes through perhaps centuries (e.g. Scotland).
I think that is spot on BR, in legal terms, there is simply nothing in Spanish Law to permit the breakup of the country. In my unimportant opinion, rightly so.

The people of the UK are leaving Europe largely based on a welter of misinformation from all sides, predicated on an insane decision by a pigfu'cking muppet to think a simple majority is sufficient for an enormous upheaval & at a time when a huge swath of the populace was seething to give the establishment a good shoeing.

Again in my unimportant opinion, it's something they will muddle through but will ultimately regret, it also seemed largely affected by the classic British feeling of being the world's most important nation & nobody can tell us what to do. Self-impoverishment is not clever but it's coming down the line ............. for the dickheads who voted but haven't the wherewithal to manage unaffected, unlike most of the Tory party who can tighten belts and still have a whale of a time.

Catalunya may well thrive in simple terms but they are going to have all manner of obstacles against being successful when the establishment, Spain & the EU decide they have no interest in helping the rebel state to thrive. I sincerely hope that Spain thwarts them and that they chillthefeckout.

Obviously, it's on a grander scale but not entirely dissimilar to the County Clare finding they are sitting on a huge gold deposit and thinking, fu'ck the rest of the country, we're better able to be prosperous without the rest of them, we are declaring ourselves the Peoples Republic of Clare & Ireland can just feck off. I would expect the Guardy Chickeneeny to be all over them with their hobnails and putting manners of the yokelbastards. :lol: :lol: :lol:

90% of a 42% turnout seems pretty impressive but it's worth noting that for a non-binding, illegal referendum, it's pretty obvious that the imperative to vote who be much stronger for those who would vote yes. I'd be surprised if it's not realistically more like 50/50 but then .... there hasn't been and won't be a legal vote.
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Re: A little bit of politics folks`

Post by HwoodMike2umate »

The question is should I bring my Catalan fleg to Ravenhill tomorrow? It has been there before. For the avoidance of any doubt, I bought it because its yella & red & therefore vaguely Ulsterish, not because I support a fully independent Catalonia.
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Re: A little bit of politics folks`

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Re: A little bit of politics folks`

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HwoodMike2umate wrote:The question is should I bring my Catalan fleg to Ravenhill tomorrow? It has been there before. For the avoidance of any doubt, I bought it because its yella & red & therefore vaguely Ulsterish, not because I support a fully independent Catalonia.
Bring it if you like, I am not sitting tomorrow night since I'm going with a few mates, all of whom will be happy to play the part of the Guardia Civil and we shall batton you, yeah unto the doors of the RVH A&E, separatist dog. >threaten >threaten >threaten :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
NEVER MOVE ON. Years on, I cannot ever watch Ireland with anything but indifference, I continue to wish for the imminent death of Donal Spring, the FIRFUC's executioner of Wee Paddy & Wee Stu, and I hate the FIRFUCs with undiminished passion.
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Re: A little bit of politics folks`

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HwoodMike2umate wrote:The question is should I bring my Catalan fleg to Ravenhill tomorrow? It has been there before. For the avoidance of any doubt, I bought it because its yella & red & therefore vaguely Ulsterish, not because I support a fully independent Catalonia.
At present there has been a serious influx of Catalan flegs in republican areas to the extent I thought the Polish had left town and we had been invaded by Spaniards over the weekend
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BR
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Re: A little bit of politics folks`

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HwoodMike2umate wrote:The question is should I bring my Catalan fleg to Ravenhill tomorrow? It has been there before. For the avoidance of any doubt, I bought it because its yella & red & therefore vaguely Ulsterish, not because I support a fully independent Catalonia.
Which one is it?
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Re: A little bit of politics folks`

Post by BaggyTrousers »

BR wrote:
HwoodMike2umate wrote:The question is should I bring my Catalan fleg to Ravenhill tomorrow? It has been there before. For the avoidance of any doubt, I bought it because its yella & red & therefore vaguely Ulsterish, not because I support a fully independent Catalonia.
Which one is it?
It's the sh1t one .............. but then again I'm biased against the self-interested treacherous Catalan scumbegs.

I might also say any friend of the Shinners needs a long hard study before becoming friends of mine .................not impossible, just bloody tricky.
NEVER MOVE ON. Years on, I cannot ever watch Ireland with anything but indifference, I continue to wish for the imminent death of Donal Spring, the FIRFUC's executioner of Wee Paddy & Wee Stu, and I hate the FIRFUCs with undiminished passion.
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Re: A little bit of politics folks`

Post by BR »

BaggyTrousers wrote:
BR wrote:
HwoodMike2umate wrote:The question is should I bring my Catalan fleg to Ravenhill tomorrow? It has been there before. For the avoidance of any doubt, I bought it because its yella & red & therefore vaguely Ulsterish, not because I support a fully independent Catalonia.
Which one is it?
It's the sh1t one .............. but then again I'm biased against the self-interested treacherous Catalan scumbegs.

I might also say any friend of the Shinners needs a long hard study before becoming friends of mine .................not impossible, just bloody tricky.
Are the communist ones less self-interested, treacherous Catalan scumbegs? Or are they all classed together?
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Re: A little bit of politics folks`

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Financial viability is always a prominent counter argument in these types of independence debates. It's one of the lies that derailed the 'Yes' vote in Scotland. In this case Catalonia seems to have the fiscal means for independence. However, this is actually being used as a counter argument, as they have labelled greedy, selfish etc..

I would get this if Catalonia had suddenly decided independence in the last ten years would be a good idea. Their claim seems to go back further than this.
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Re: A little bit of politics folks`

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BaggyTrousers wrote: Obviously, it's on a grander scale but not entirely dissimilar to the County Clare finding they are sitting on a huge gold deposit and thinking, fu'ck the rest of the country, we're better able to be prosperous without the rest of them, we are declaring ourselves the Peoples Republic of Clare & Ireland can just feck off. I would expect the Guardy Chickeneeny to be all over them with their hobnails and putting manners of the yokelbastards. :lol: :lol: :lol:
Hmmm - Clare is certainly the best place in this emerald isle but even I would not push for Clare independence. The greatest should always try to help out the rest and that is what Clare shall continue to do by not abandoning our friends in the other 25 counties. :D

Such a shame to see the state of things in the Kingdom of Spain. Maybe we should send a delegation over from the Kingdom of Kerry to help them. They have great experience in dealing with the langers. Sorting out Spain would be a doddle for them.
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Re: A little bit of politics folks`

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Dave wrote:Financial viability is always a prominent counter argument in these types of independence debates. It's one of the lies that derailed the 'Yes' vote in Scotland. In this case Catalonia seems to have the fiscal means for independence. However, this is actually being used as a counter argument, as they have labelled greedy, selfish etc..

I would get this if Catalonia had suddenly decided independence in the last ten years would be a good idea. Their claim seems to go back further than this.
I don't think Catalonia's financial ability is being mooted as a counter-argument to its (potential) independence. Seceding from a Spanish redistributive taxation system is an argument that has been put forth because Catalonia is a net contributor. This, I find, undermines what might be legitimate cultural and identity questions. Imagine the words we'd use if London wanted to secede from the UK because it's just about the only net contributor to a redistributive system. Imagine, even more, if one wished to do that at an individual level.

This is no reflection on my personal opinion on what should, or shouldn't, be allowed in legal terms and in terms of self-determination; nor about whether or not I think Catalonia should (or has the right to) declare independence. As it is, being neither Spanish nor Catalonian, I have little vested opinion in what's going on, beyond a fundamental belief in the right to self-determination. What I will say is that if I were writing a manual on civil war, I'd have recommended most of the things the Spanish government has done.
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Re: A little bit of politics folks`

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Neil F wrote:
Dave wrote:Financial viability is always a prominent counter argument in these types of independence debates. It's one of the lies that derailed the 'Yes' vote in Scotland. In this case Catalonia seems to have the fiscal means for independence. However, this is actually being used as a counter argument, as they have labelled greedy, selfish etc..

I would get this if Catalonia had suddenly decided independence in the last ten years would be a good idea. Their claim seems to go back further than this.
I don't think Catalonia's financial ability is being mooted as a counter-argument to its (potential) independence. Seceding from a Spanish redistributive taxation system is an argument that has been put forth because Catalonia is a net contributor. This, I find, undermines what might be legitimate cultural and identity questions. Imagine the words we'd use if London wanted to secede from the UK because it's just about the only net contributor to a redistributive system. Imagine, even more, if one wished to do that at an individual level.

This is no reflection on my personal opinion on what should, or shouldn't, be allowed in legal terms and in terms of self-determination; nor about whether or not I think Catalonia should (or has the right to) declare independence. As it is, being neither Spanish nor Catalonian, I have little vested opinion in what's going on, beyond a fundamental belief in the right to self-determination. What I will say is that if I were writing a manual on civil war, I'd have recommended most of the things the Spanish government has done.
It has been.
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Re: A little bit of politics folks`

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Shan wrote:
BaggyTrousers wrote: Obviously, it's on a grander scale but not entirely dissimilar to the County Clare finding they are sitting on a huge gold deposit and thinking, fu'ck the rest of the country, we're better able to be prosperous without the rest of them, we are declaring ourselves the Peoples Republic of Clare & Ireland can just feck off. I would expect the Guardy Chickeneeny to be all over them with their hobnails and putting manners of the yokelbastards. :lol: :lol: :lol:
Hmmm - Clare is certainly the best place in this emerald isle but even I would not push for Clare independence. The greatest should always try to help out the rest and that is what Clare shall continue to do by not abandoning our friends in the other 25 counties. :D

Such a shame to see the state of things in the Kingdom of Spain. Maybe we should send a delegation over from the Kingdom of Kerry to help them. They have great experience in dealing with the langers. Sorting out Spain would be a doddle for them.
Maybe we could have our 26 counties back, I noted some time ago a lot of Catalan flags being erected in prodominatly republican area, I would assume that those in the know , knew this blatant charade against democracy was in the pipeline. Today it would seem democracy is only if the left decide it's acceptable . Interesting but to see the EU not condemning the actions of the police as this independence is against their financial interests .
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Re: A little bit of politics folks`

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Dave wrote:
Neil F wrote:
Dave wrote:Financial viability is always a prominent counter argument in these types of independence debates. It's one of the lies that derailed the 'Yes' vote in Scotland. In this case Catalonia seems to have the fiscal means for independence. However, this is actually being used as a counter argument, as they have labelled greedy, selfish etc..

I would get this if Catalonia had suddenly decided independence in the last ten years would be a good idea. Their claim seems to go back further than this.
I don't think Catalonia's financial ability is being mooted as a counter-argument to its (potential) independence. Seceding from a Spanish redistributive taxation system is an argument that has been put forth because Catalonia is a net contributor. This, I find, undermines what might be legitimate cultural and identity questions. Imagine the words we'd use if London wanted to secede from the UK because it's just about the only net contributor to a redistributive system. Imagine, even more, if one wished to do that at an individual level.

This is no reflection on my personal opinion on what should, or shouldn't, be allowed in legal terms and in terms of self-determination; nor about whether or not I think Catalonia should (or has the right to) declare independence. As it is, being neither Spanish nor Catalonian, I have little vested opinion in what's going on, beyond a fundamental belief in the right to self-determination. What I will say is that if I were writing a manual on civil war, I'd have recommended most of the things the Spanish government has done.
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