Greatest ever xv

[Snipe Watson]

Apart from that I agree with Baggy. It is very hard to nail down one set of 15 players and not think later of changing some of them. There's the odd position where you will have a set in stone selection, such as Gareth Edwards for the older crew amongst us. For me Cullen, BOD, Horan, Gregan. Hill are set in stone......at this moment.


There is also of course the familiarity, or lack thereof thing going on. Typically we see players from all over the world a lot more now because of TV and because of an increased schedule of matches. That can have different results. You can become almost immune to the brilliance of a player if it is oh so regular and equally you can spot the failings in players you see all the time. On the positive side you could become even more aware of how great certain players are.

Equally one can think back to the old days and imagine things differently to the reality. One can pick out a great moment here, a great try there etc but the overall package can be harder to remember. A lot of the time people will base a judgement on a small number of incidents from a very small number of matches.


Also if you asked someone English who was old enough you'd probably be told that Will Carling was better than Tim Horan. For proof please send Clive Woodward an e-mail and ask him.

only a total buffoon would leave Horan out. Same with Zinzan Brooke .....oh that's right....and stop tryin to let on you're a young fella


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Shan]

only a total buffoon would leave Horan out. Same with Zinzan Brooke .....oh that's right....and stop tryin to let on you're a young fella.

Would yiz ever get up the yard my dear chap. It's all subjective stuff.


Also....You know it's funny I was talking about this last week with another old fecker. As one ages, one's contemporaries don't seem to visibly or behaviourily age. I'm working with guys who are slipping towards mid 50's and yet they don't look or seem old. So yes I'm not a "young fellow" anymore. Actually my lunatic aquaintance from Glasgow was over last week in work and he was telling me he is 55. I told him I'd have given him mid 40's....late 40's tops. He doesn't act like what you'd expect a 55 year old to act*. Then again neither does Baggy and that old árse is even older than that.


* I guess I mean what I, when I was a 20 year old, would have expected of 55 year olds.



Actually he did also point out one other little gem- "ya know yer gettin' old when you see a lady walking down the street with her mother and ya fancy the mother". I never really thought of that but when he said it I was thinking "well feck it anyway the old Scottish ballix is right".....though if the lady was 60 I guess if ya fancied the mother ya might need some help. I never got a chance to ask him about the independence. I'm almost afraid to given he's a mad Rangers Fan and he might go nuts at the idea. Then again he could be in favour....who knows.....


What the feck is this thread about again....Sorry guys.

[BaggyTrousers]

Shan given away his age there.
I always imaged him as a wisened old sage like figure with a softly spoken Limereck accent buts thats gone out the windy!

Yerra I just like to pretend I have accumulated a lifetime of knowledge but really I haven't scratched the surface Bazza.

To the lovely sound of UK Number 1 "January" one entered the fray.


Cullen was scandalous.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-IpR7Zgzog

Aye all very well but as Jizzbeg says all his tries were against shyte countries, like Australia, South Africa & bloody Scotland.

What the discerning viewer will have gathered is that not only had he the best step ever at full tilt but he had the pace and ability to support the attack that saw him almost invariably in the right place at the right time.

Now FFS Jizzer stop yer ould ballix about his limitations of only being able to score against Fiji. To this day no NZ player has scored more Tri-Nations tries than Cullen, soft opposition my ballix.

[BaggyTrousers]

Snipe , I have always thought of you as a half sensible sort of a crater but you need yer feckin' bumps read & then get a second opinion if the first biy says yer not a loon.

I saw Timmy Horan at his peak in tandem with Jason Little who was also superb BUT if you think either was better than BOD or Gibson, I must confer "arsehat" "arsefoon" & several other varieties of Brennan-related titles upon you. I assume you did see Gibson play, you aren't that feckin' green?

It quite simply isn't so. Opinions are one thing, madness a completely different kettle of budgerigars. In the words of our Limerick correspondent, "get up the yard ya ould gowlbag".

[bazzaj]

Perfectly aware I am being picky as I said Bagster.
He was utterly fantastic as I keep saying.
Would I prefer him to JPR or Blanco?
Not a chance.
Both of their careers spanned well over a decade and not too many of their caps were awarded against crap as they did not get capped against sides that werent 5 nations or tri nations up until the first world cup if memory serves.

However Cullen would not disgrace an all time 15 unlike Harinordoquoy.

Horan over Gibson is a battle of generations again longevity to each career but Gibsons was the from 64-79!
Gibsons skill level is better than anyone in any time but physically he may have struggled at 12 in the modern era but as I said he would have been a brilliant 10 in the modern game.
He made his international debut as a 10 and didnt do bad as you can see.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xKCPGn ... detailpage

[Shan]

Just out of interest Will Carling's Top 20. Only 3 English. I remember Peter Winterbottom. Thought he was top class.

Anyway Baggy he has Gibson pretty high on the list and he has Edwards at the top. I bet that makes you feel all fuzzy that Will Carling is on your wavelength.

20. JPR
19. Willie John
18. Sean Fitz
17. Winterbottom
16. Rives
15. Duckham
14. Meads
13. Gibson
12. Gregan
11. Sella
10. BOD
9. Zinzan
8. Martin Johnson
7. Hugo Porto
6. Danie Gerber
5. Blanco
4. Lomu
3. Campo
2. Michael Jones
1. Edwards

[Shan]

Snipe , I have always thought of you as a half sensible sort of a crater but you need yer feckin' bumps read & then get a second opinion if the first biy says yer not a loon.

I saw Timmy Horan at his peak in tandem with Jason Little who was also superb BUT if you think either was better than BOD or Gibson, I must confer "arsehat" "arsefoon" & several other varieties of Brennan-related titles upon you. I assume you did see Gibson play, you aren't that feckin' green?

It quite simply isn't so. Opinions are one thing, madness a completely different kettle of budgerigars. In the words of our Limerick correspondent, "get up the yard ya ould gowlbag".

I wish I had seen Gibson. My auld Da nearly has tears in his eyes when he is talking about him. Think he pretty much agrees with Bill McLaren.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibDNBjoel4s

[bazzaj]

I used to think that Bill Mcs well documented opinion on Gibson carried weight Shan, till I read his autobiography where he picked Rob Andrew at 10 in his all time greatest team!?
Any of these selects I have ever seen Edwards, Eales, Brooke and Fitzpatrick tend to be the only constants.

[Shan]

Gibsons skill level is better than anyone in any time but physically he may have struggled at 12 in the modern era but as I said he would have been a brilliant 10 in the modern game.

Bazza- We can only determine players compared to their own peers. The game has changed a lot and become much more physical and in some respects less about skill. However there is still a place for the highly skilled in the game and they can still prosper at the very top like BOD did for example....not that I'm saying BOD has no physicality but he isn't a big lump like say George North who isn't fit to lace his boots in overall or skill terms but has carved out and will continue to carve out a good career despite his incredible limitations for an allegedly top player. Lomu on the other hand, regardless of what I've said previously, has both physicality and skill. He could offload the ball effectively which is something North struggles with and even though he wasn't much of a defender he is like BOD & Darcy combined compared to the likes of North in that department. Or to put it another way he actually had a brain to go his talent.

Shane Horgan is one of the only players I saw that was able to deal effectively with Lomu(granted it was towards the end of the big man's career) He had the physicality. Horgan was hugely underrated too IMO. He is probably better than the majority of the wingers in Europe(excluding the likes of Habana and other SH guys in France) right now....with the exception of Tommy at his best.


Be advised I am not suggesting Horgan should be in a World 15. Now if I was talking about Anthony Horgan it might be different.

[Shan]

I used to think that Bill Mcs well documented opinion on Gibson carried weight Shan, till I read his autobiography where he picked Rob Andrew ar 10 in his all time greatest team!?
Any of these selects I have ever seen Edwards, Eales, Brooke and Fitzpatrick tend to be the only constants.

Ouch. I didn't realise he held Andrew in high regard. Oh feck. Andrew was a game stifler and that is being nice to him.

I remember my Da used to say about Craig Chalmers, "He'd be fine if you could cut his legs off". The same could be said about Andrew.


That is a disappointment I have to say.

[BaggyTrousers]

Gibsons skill level is better than anyone in any time but physically he may have struggled at 12 in the modern era but as I said he would have been a brilliant 10 in the modern game.

Bazza- We can only determine players compared to their own peers. The game has changed a lot and become much more physical and in some respects less about skill. However there is still a place for the highly skilled in the game and they can still prosper at the very top like BOD did for example....not that I'm saying BOD has no physicality but he isn't a big lump like say George North who isn't fit to lace his boots in overall or skill terms but has carved out and will continue to carve out a good career despite his incredible limitations for an allegedly top player. Lomu on the other hand, regardless of what I've said previously, has both physicality and skill. He could offload the ball effectively which is something North struggles with and even though he wasn't much of a defender he is like BOD & Darcy combined compared to the likes of North in that department. Or to put it another way he actually had a brain to go his talent.

Shane Horgan is one of the only players I saw that was able to deal effectively with Lomu(granted it was towards the end of the big man's career) He had the physicality. Horgan was hugely underrated too IMO. He is probably better than the majority of the wingers in Europe(excluding the likes of Habana and other SH guys in France) right now....with the exception of Tommy at his best.


Be advised I am not suggesting Horgan should be in a World 15. Now if I was talking about Anthony Horgan it might be different.

Jizzer, Shan has more or less covered it, but I really must labour this point. That is the sort of comment that occasionally has people at your throat, some dismissing you as an arsefoon. It makes absolutely no sense to speak of an incredibly talented player who went to work 5 days a week & rubbish what you imagine would be his physique half a century later.

I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that had CMH Gibson had the same level of preparation, diet & fitness regime as todays players, his mental & rugby intelligence, phenomenal skill level would have brought out even more than we saw of his genius. I rate BOD incredibly highly but I regard the two best players I have ever seen as Edwards with Gibson a short head behind.

And Shan I was always a fan of Hoggy despite him being run down by a 2nd row for pace.

[Shan]

And Shan I was always a fan of Hoggy despite him being run down by a 2nd row for pace.

He's faster than Joe Launchbury though.


Actually made me think.....and I know it is very different but Wally running down a flying Welsh winger is still one of my favourite moments. What an absolute legend of a man.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfJvsJzKW8U

[bazzaj]

Gibsons skill level is better than anyone in any time but physically he may have struggled at 12 in the modern era but as I said he would have been a brilliant 10 in the modern game.

Bazza- We can only determine players compared to their own peers. The game has changed a lot and become much more physical and in some respects less about skill. However there is still a place for the highly skilled in the game and they can still prosper at the very top like BOD did for example....not that I'm saying BOD has no physicality but he isn't a big lump like say George North who isn't fit to lace his boots in overall or skill terms but has carved out and will continue to carve out a good career despite his incredible limitations for an allegedly top player. Lomu on the other hand, regardless of what I've said previously, has both physicality and skill. He could offload the ball effectively which is something North struggles with and even though he wasn't much of a defender he is like BOD & Darcy combined compared to the likes of North in that department. Or to put it another way he actually had a brain to go his talent. U

Shane Horgan is one of the only players I saw that was able to deal effectively with Lomu(granted it was towards the end of the big man's career) He had the physicality. Horgan was hugely underrated too IMO. He is probably better than the majority of the wingers in Europe(excluding the likes of Habana and other SH guys in France) right now....with the exception of Tommy at his best.


Be advised I am not suggesting Horgan should be in a World 15. Now if I was talking about Anthony Horgan it might be different.

Jizzer, Shan has more or less covered it, but I really must labour this point. That is the sort of comment that occasionally has people at your throat, some dismissing you as an arsefoon. It makes absolutely no sense to speak of an incredibly talented player who went to work 5 days a week & rubbish what you imagine would be his physique half a century later.

I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that had CMH Gibson had the same level of preparation, diet & fitness regime as todays players, his mental & rugby intelligence, phenomenal skill level would have brought out even more than we saw of his genius. I rate BOD incredibly highly but I regard the two best players I have ever seen as Edwards with Gibson a short head behind.

And Shan I was always a fan of Hoggy despite him being run down by a 2nd row for pace.

Happy to swallow that.
Whilst the game has moved on I think the skills like side steppimg, timing a pass, throwing a dummy have not and have been sacrificed for bulk and power particularly in the NH.
Gibson and BOD in the centres then.

[Snipe Watson]

Snipe , I have always thought of you as a half sensible sort of a crater but you need yer feckin' bumps read & then get a second opinion if the first biy says yer not a loon.

I saw Timmy Horan at his peak in tandem with Jason Little who was also superb BUT if you think either was better than BOD or Gibson, I must confer "arsehat" "arsefoon" & several other varieties of Brennan-related titles upon you. I assume you did see Gibson play, you aren't that feckin' green?

It quite simply isn't so. Opinions are one thing, madness a completely different kettle of budgerigars. In the words of our Limerick correspondent, "get up the yard ya ould gowlbag".

I have returned to Chez Watson from my recent sojourn on't continent. Food, wine and beer all excellent. WiFi in hotel not so, but I wasn't there to converse with you and the Langer king of old Limerick town so as yer man in the butter add has it, 'nat te worry'. I'm only picking players from the professional era or thereabouts 1985 is the notional cut off. I don't think we an compare eras as the game was as different as day and night from what we have now. BOD is 13 in my selection, he ousts Sella Horan was at 12. Horan and Little were some combo and the animal Herbert didn't exactly weaken the side when he replaced Little.

[Shan]

I have returned to Chez Watson from my recent sojourn on't continent. Food, wine and beer all excellent. WiFi in hotel not so, but I wasn't there to converse with you and the Langer king of old Limerick town so as yer man in the butter add has it, 'nat te worry'. I'm only picking players from the professional era or thereabouts 1985 is the notional cut off. I don't think we an compare eras as the game was as different as day and night from what we have now. BOD is 13 in my selection, he ousts Sella Horan was at 12. Horan and Little were some combo and the animal Herbert didn't exactly weaken the side when he replaced Little.

Delighted you enjoyed it Snipe. Less so that you failed to capitalise the word "king"