Future of the H-Cup

[davejohnston]

So this years tournament is almost over, and with only one year left there doesn't seem to be any decisions over the future of the H cup. From what I can see the English and French are playing hardball.

Anyone else heard anything ? Do you reckon next year really will be the last?

[damienmcguigan]

I read something somewhere that the English are going to 'allow' 7 Rabo teams to join 'their' competition, partly based on geography. I cant remember how many English and French they wanted but I believe it to be 6 each and they would also have a playoff between the 7th placed English team and 7th placed French team for one extra position bringing the total to 20.

[Gael]

I had really hoped this idiotic idea would have been strangled in its cradle.

[bazzaj]

The French and particularly English sides have always pured scorn on the Celtic sides due to the lack of competitive nature of their league.
I remember Dallagio being interviewed and saying as much before a Wasps/ Ulster game over a decade ago.
By this he said the top Rabo sides from each country are virtually guaranteed HEC qualification and do not have relegation issues so they can concentrate their efforts on Europe.
This was particularly exemplified by the Munster side this year.

From what I can see this is petty minded and it is the fall out of their club sides being allowed to seize power when professionalism came into the game.
Even with those odds no Rabo side out of Ireland has won it and the splits are similar in terms of past winners between France, England and Ireland.
Why dont they just have the English champs play the French champs at the end of every season, tell them they are the best in Europe and have done with it.

[mikerob]

The last article I saw said the proposal on the table was a 20 team HEC with representation of 6 AP, 6 T14, 7 Pro12 and 1 place based upon a play-off between AP and T14.

The Pro12 places would be 2 Irish, 2 Welsh, 1 Scottish, 1 Italian and the next highest finishing team. So for example, this season this would mean: Ulster, Leinster, Scarlets, Ospreys, Glasgow, Treviso, Munster. Edinburgh and Cardiff would be the teams to lose out.

Quarter finalists would be the 5 group winners and 3 best 2nd placed teams.

Given that some sort of compromise would be needed, personally I don't think this is too bad an idea.

Making it tougher to qualify from the Pro12 would increase the competitiveness of the league, IMO.

If this does end up being the format, it could be a case of "be careful for what you wish for" for the AP teams. They benefit as much as anyone else to have a weaker team in the group, and if a reduced number of teams means the overall quality is higher, the AP teams will find it even tougher to qualify in a group with a top Pro12 team or one of the T14 teams who give a toss about the HEC.

[bazzaj]

Have to admit that would be good for the pro 12 league but it may sap resources for the HEC.
For example could you afford to traditionally throw away the away Christmas away fixture to either Munster or Leinster which would effectively be double headers?
The French teams do the the same European matches as the league is where the priorities lie.
Also the games further down the table will actually mean something as opposed to sides rolling over like Cardiff did with us in the last game.
In European terms there would not be the non competitive groups which Harlequins won at a canter this year.

As fickle as I am if it increases intensity in competition it may be a good thing but ultimately I think it will effect the chances of any Rabo sides such as Munster doing what they did this year by neglecting the league in order to to concentrate on Europe.
Cetainly this proposal has its merits but it might well have a burn out effect on those non centrally contracted players who will be fighting like dogs in every game.

[mikerob]

As fickle as I am if it increases intensity in competition it may be a good thing but ultimately I think it will effect the chances of any Rabo sides such as Munster doing what they did this year by neglecting the league in order to to concentrate on Europe.
Cetainly this proposal has its merits but it might well have a burn out effect on those non centrally contracted players who will be fighting like dogs in every game.

I don't see that as a negative. Not giving a toss about the Pro12 but still getting practically guaranteed qualification strikes me as wanting to have your cake and eat it.

The IRFU have been cutting down on the number of centrally contracted players, so each province won't have that many (AFAIK Ulster currently only has 3 or 4: Best, Trimble, Bowe, not sure about Court, Ferris did have one) and this is out of a squad of about 40 + 12 academy players so burn out of this many players isn't really an issue.

If the overall squad is good quality, then qualification still doesn't appear to be very demanding. Even though Munster focussed on the HEC, with the proposed new qualification, they were still 16 points ahead of the next non-qualifying team. Last season when Ulster concentrated on the HEC, Ulster would still have qualified based upon Pro12 position, and were 6 points ahead of the next non-qualifying team (I realise this shouldn't be taken too far as if the qualification rules had been different, results could have been different)

[ruckover]

If it keeps up this way you may simply have three separate cups for the different leagues because no league will be completely happy with any modifications made. It's an impossible issue to sort out and I have no idea what it could be changed to anyway.

[bazzaj]

The last article I saw said the proposal on the table was a 20 team HEC with representation of 6 AP, 6 T14, 7 Pro12 and 1 place based upon a play-off between AP and T14.

The Pro12 places would be 2 Irish, 2 Welsh, 1 Scottish, 1 Italian and the next highest finishing team. So for example, this season this would mean: Ulster, Leinster, Scarlets, Ospreys, Glasgow, Treviso, Munster. Edinburgh and Cardiff would be the teams to lose out.

.

My problem has always been the resentment of the English sides harping on that the qualification process is so unfair for the Celtic teams who get automatic qualification.
Thats their problem as far as I am concerned.
What I would like to see is increased competition in the Rabo as I hate to see sides rolling over or sending out reserve teams which short changes the viewing public.

I have looked at this new proposal in a little more detail and certainly for this season the gap between the top 7 sides and the next 5 was 12 points, which is huge with Treviso on 50 and Connacht on 38.
I dont believe that the bottom 5 sides really were all that competitive this season and even with the incentive of 12 points to make up for HEC qualification, I dont think it would have made much difference as Mike mentioned.
It seems to be an issue with resources rather than providing incentives.

Also they would still be guaranteed European rugby in the Amlin so its not as if they will be starved from European rugby and there is no threat from relegation, which is not really an option.
It may or may not intensify rugby competion in the Rabo league but will in the HEC so if thats what they want, bring it on.

[mikerob]

What we don't know about are the discussions about money and I think these will be more important than the format of the HEC.

As I've said, I think the English teams in general will be one of the losers from a smaller, higher quality HEC. The AP teams are much of a muchness these days and I don't think any of them can transform themselves into a European powerhouse in the way that Leicester and Wasps have been in the past. If the Pro12 bunnies are no longer in the competition, the AP teams will be the ones mainly taking over this role.

I don't think playing in the ACC would do a team like Zebre any harm... and if Ulster reverted to being in the bottom 3 of the Pro12 like a few years ago, I don't think we should complain about playing in the ACC either (but obviously I hope the situation never arises!)

[bazzaj]

I think European club competition goes in cycles and just like the soccer equivilant.
This year the French, Irish before and English before that.
For a healthier competition I would like to see the other countries upping their games which the competition does lack, especially with the recent regional demise of the Welsh sides.
I can only see an increased cash infux being the answer to attract the best players and stop their homegrown talent going elsewhere.

[mikerob]

There are underlying reasons behind cycles, though.

Sometimes a team is lucky enough to have a crop of exceptional players come along at the same time... but ultimately players get old and retire. You could say this about Munster.

Sometimes a team is better organised and effective than the opposition. The English teams in the early days were simply more professional, but the rest have caught up.

Sometimes a team has loads of money and can try and buy success. Flashing loads of cash does not guarantee success, but it can deliver sometimes.

So really to be consistently successful a team needs:
- a large pipeline of talented players that they can pick and choose from, rather than hoping the genes fall their way
- organised and professional managment, winning culture, that sort of stuff,
- lots of money, and that means a sugar daddy, or big supporter base and a big stadium

[Neill_M]

Currently only the 4th Irish and 4th Welsh sides don't go into the H-Cup through league position. 10/12 is too many and 7 sides is about right. What happens under this new proposal in terms of the set-up for teams like Connacht getting into the H-Cup through the back door so to speak with Leinster etc winning H-Cup/Amlin? Would it disappear and places purely be based on league position?

Also would the winners of the 2 cups be guaranteed spots in the H-Cup even if they didn't qualify through their league position and out rank a team who qualifies through their league position? For example last season in Barclays Premiership where Spurs finished 4th, but missed out because Chelsea won CL.

[mikerob]

Currently only the 4th Irish and 4th Welsh sides don't go into the H-Cup through league position. 10/12 is too many and 7 sides is about right. What happens under this new proposal in terms of the set-up for teams like Connacht getting into the H-Cup through the back door so to speak with Leinster etc winning H-Cup/Amlin? Would it disappear and places purely be based on league position?

Also would the winners of the 2 cups be guaranteed spots in the H-Cup even if they didn't qualify through their league position and out rank a team who qualifies through their league position? For example last season in Barclays Premiership where Spurs finished 4th, but missed out because Chelsea won CL.

Additional places for the HEC and ACC winners don't seem to be part of the current proposals. They haven't said if winning the HEC or ACC guarantees qualification but I'd guess they will do what you say, and an ACC/HEC winner that hasn't qualified through the league will take a league qualification place from the same country.

Also as you say, it would mean an end to Connacht's chance of getting into the HEC through one of the other Irish provinces winning the HEC/ACC. For Connacht to stand a chance qualifying through league position, they'd need to be winning 4 to 5 more games a season than they are at the moment.

[Neill_M]

Indeed the proposals remove any extra country places, i.e. Connacht situation for the rabo league but still gives english/french teams who don't make H-Cup through their league position a chance to get in through the proposed play-off. No mention of allowing the rabo 12 teams to take part in these playoffs