Benetton v Ulster Saturday January 7 1pm KO (UK Time) Viaplay (Premier) Sports 1 / URC TV / Super Sport

[Big-al]

Also, we should have duffed Leicester in the Parker Pen. All these knockout matches that slip away at the end cost the bank balance. As soda states, better coaching doesn't come cheap. Also, more cash equals better signings.

Squad not good enough to gaurantee a win versus Leicester, away from home. To come within a point last season over two legs vs Toulouse then European champions and a £20mil - £30mil annual budget is nothing to be sniffed at.

Soda makes a great point, youth development pathway is pure dung, a la Henderson the only forward from here capable of gaining an Irish cap in over 10 years.

Sad truth is Leinster have a dozen forwards of Henderson standard and don't win the European Cup every year, they then add NIQs like Fardy into that, indeed didn't win the league last year.

The fact the current squad and coaches have been probably over achieving over the last few seasons has painted over the cracks. Everything now brought into question as we've lost games.

Leinster have development issues too.

Their 2nd choice backline is nothing to rave about and their 1st Choice backline consists of Connacht product Henshaw & two kiwis in Gibson-park and James Lowe, as well as a 38 year old outhalf. Ringrose struggles to pass, I certainly wouldn’t swap Larmour for Baloucoune or Stockdale and Keenan is solid, great defender, but hasn’t shown the power/pace to cut quality teams apart.

They can produce quality forwards galore, although if they can’t win a Hcup at home this season, then they never will for a long time to come.

JGP and Sexton aren’t getting younger. For all the talk of Ulster choking under pressure, Leinster done so last season in both the league and Hcup final.

[Dave]

Also, we should have duffed Leicester in the Parker Pen. All these knockout matches that slip away at the end cost the bank balance. As soda states, better coaching doesn't come cheap. Also, more cash equals better signings.

Squad not good enough to gaurantee a win versus Leicester, away from home. To come within a point last season over two legs vs Toulouse then European champions and a £20mil - £30mil annual budget is nothing to be sniffed at.

Soda makes a great point, youth development pathway is pure dung, a la Henderson the only forward from here capable of gaining an Irish cap in over 10 years.

Sad truth is Leinster have a dozen forwards of Henderson standard and don't win the European Cup every year, they then add NIQs like Fardy into that, indeed didn't win the league last year.

The fact the current squad and coaches have been probably over achieving over the last few seasons has painted over the cracks. Everything now brought into question as we've lost games.

Agreed, we don’t have a snowball in hells chance of a trophy in the next 10 years. I still think that we should have won those games based on the position we were in and the circumstances of the game. So dominant in the first half versus Leicester, didn't turn up for the second half. Toulose is a harsh one, I agree, but if only we could close out a game every now and again.

[Bayern]

Also, we should have duffed Leicester in the Parker Pen. All these knockout matches that slip away at the end cost the bank balance. As soda states, better coaching doesn't come cheap. Also, more cash equals better signings.

Squad not good enough to gaurantee a win versus Leicester, away from home. To come within a point last season over two legs vs Toulouse then European champions and a £20mil - £30mil annual budget is nothing to be sniffed at.

Soda makes a great point, youth development pathway is pure dung, a la Henderson the only forward from here capable of gaining an Irish cap in over 10 years.

Sad truth is Leinster have a dozen forwards of Henderson standard and don't win the European Cup every year, they then add NIQs like Fardy into that, indeed didn't win the league last year.

The fact the current squad and coaches have been probably over achieving over the last few seasons has painted over the cracks. Everything now brought into question as we've lost games.

Leinster have development issues too.

Their 2nd choice backline is nothing to rave about and their 1st Choice backline consists of Connacht product Henshaw & two kiwis in Gibson-park and James Lowe, as well as a 38 year old outhalf. Ringrose struggles to pass, I certainly wouldn’t swap Larmour for Baloucoune or Stockdale and Keenan is solid, great defender, but hasn’t shown the power/pace to cut quality teams apart.

They can produce quality forwards galore, although if they can’t win a Hcup at home this season, then they never will for a long time to come.

JGP and Sexton aren’t getting younger. For all the talk of Ulster choking under pressure, Leinster done so last season in both the league and Hcup final.

losing a final away in france to a last minute try is choking? interesting.

[Dave]

Also, we should have duffed Leicester in the Parker Pen. All these knockout matches that slip away at the end cost the bank balance. As soda states, better coaching doesn't come cheap. Also, more cash equals better signings.

Squad not good enough to gaurantee a win versus Leicester, away from home. To come within a point last season over two legs vs Toulouse then European champions and a £20mil - £30mil annual budget is nothing to be sniffed at.

Soda makes a great point, youth development pathway is pure dung, a la Henderson the only forward from here capable of gaining an Irish cap in over 10 years.

Sad truth is Leinster have a dozen forwards of Henderson standard and don't win the European Cup every year, they then add NIQs like Fardy into that, indeed didn't win the league last year.

The fact the current squad and coaches have been probably over achieving over the last few seasons has painted over the cracks. Everything now brought into question as we've lost games.

Leinster have development issues too.

Their 2nd choice backline is nothing to rave about and their 1st Choice backline consists of Connacht product Henshaw & two kiwis in Gibson-park and James Lowe, as well as a 38 year old outhalf. Ringrose struggles to pass, I certainly wouldn’t swap Larmour for Baloucoune or Stockdale and Keenan is solid, great defender, but hasn’t shown the power/pace to cut quality teams apart.

They can produce quality forwards galore, although if they can’t win a Hcup at home this season, then they never will for a long time to come.

JGP and Sexton aren’t getting younger. For all the talk of Ulster choking under pressure, Leinster done so last season in both the league and Hcup final.

losing a final away in france to a last minute try is choking? interesting.

They choked.

[Godots bedpan]

From the outside it seems as if Ulster are crying out for leadership since Best retired. Henderson is a super player, but he doesn’t seem to have that ability to galvanise others. There is a sense the team is somewhat missing its soul, there is no one players the others rally around, none of the senior forwards like Herring/Timoney seem that vocal or capable of stepping into that gap. Individually there are enough good players but they are not coming together as a collective.
Unfortunately like Munster a couple of seasons back I suspect Ulster have gone past the point of too many imports, essentially they’ve have diluted what it means to play for Ulster to the point where its play for pay rather than play for passion/pride in your place, with pay an afterthought/added bonus. When you have that kind of a culture and the choices are going to dark places to win a game or opting out but making an effort to look like you’re trying but in truth you’re not arsed, unfortunately it’s the latter that’s happening. Looking from the outside DVM is thinking about what he is spending the money on already. Murphy is fit – watched him in the warm up in the RDS a few weeks ago, didn't seem to be a bother on him - assume he is on reasonably big money too but haven’t seen much of him this season. Paying someone £150K(?) to hold tackle bags is not going to be great for squad morale. Ulster needs more Ulster and less SA/Leinster. They need to get the pride back in the jersey. The Royston Vasey approach is the way forward, 85/90% local with two or three well chosen imports to supplement the local lads, your home grown backline is to die for. There is obviously young talent there, it is being brought through in certain positions but not others. The Ulster schools cup standard is still excellent, the bridge between schools and the Ulster academy for forwards needs to be looked at.
&DMcF needs to bench Burns, he’s been on one leg for over a month and he is getting picked off. Cant understand why Ulster are letting him kick penalties and he is getting 20 yards when you've Stockdale there who can kick it a mile. Strange. In truth think Burns is a good squad player but is he really a No1 who is going to drive a team to a league or HEC success? I’m not convinced. Makes Healy going to Scotland all the more interesting, I’d love to know did Ulster have a genuine look or did they pass without giving it serious consideration.

[Big-al]

Murray Kinsella said only Munster (from Irish provinces) offered him a contract.

[Tap+Go]

Murray Kinsella said only Munster (from Irish provinces) offered him a contract.

Also read that Healy had said only Irish province he would play for was Munster. Whether that’s correct or not is another thing but potentially the case when he had the Scottish qualified option as an alternative.

[Tap+Go]

The Ulster schools cup standard is still excellent, the bridge between schools and the Ulster academy for forwards needs to be looked at.

Schools cup standard really that good? It’s a comp with realistically if even 3 or 4 potential winners each year. The bigger Ulster schools regularly play the bigger schools from other provinces & usually aren’t overly competitive. Think RBAI, Campbell & Wallace have all had losses to Leinster or Munster schools in last week or 2.

I’ve saw Ulster clubs go & win multiple festivals in Leinster or across the Uk at minis level. In fact you can nearly pick out at minis level a large amount of kids who will make it through to underage Ulster teams. But in those schools & youth years players seem to fall behind the likes of Leinster. Whether it’s a pure numbers thing or lack of competition or quality coaching across schools/clubs I’m not sure.

Certainly the Ulster underage scouting & training programmes have much improved but it’s maybe pushing that consistency of what is being coached there down into the underlying clubs & schools. Consistent athletic development or S&C also key.

Also bringing others through from non rugby playing schools is hard. Pull of GAA is still strong & for those who do play within clubs they generally train say once a week & are coached by parent volunteers against a schools players who are training prob at least 3 times a week with better qualified coaching & playing more competitive games.

When it comes to underage Irish teams Leinster are dominating. Hence even if you are a talented Ulster kid but behind a Leinster player at underage Irish level you’ll not get an academy place - with potential if Leinster don’t want that player Ulster will pick up them up. Understandable & examples of it working with O’Connor & Timoney but squeezes out the home grown Ulster talent coming through. We need more at the schools & clubs level coming through at Ireland level & that’s where we need to be investing given the resources private Leinster schools throw at it.

[Big-al]

The Ulster schools cup standard is still excellent, the bridge between schools and the Ulster academy for forwards needs to be looked at.

Schools cup standard really that good? It’s a comp with realistically if even 3 or 4 potential winners each year. The bigger Ulster schools regularly play the bigger schools from other provinces & usually aren’t overly competitive. Think RBAI, Campbell & Wallace have all had losses to Leinster or Munster schools in last week or 2.

I’ve saw Ulster clubs go & win multiple festivals in Leinster or across the Uk at minis level. In fact you can nearly pick out at minis level a large amount of kids who will make it through to underage Ulster teams. But in those schools & youth years players seem to fall behind the likes of Leinster. Whether it’s a pure numbers thing or lack of competition or quality coaching across schools/clubs I’m not sure.

Certainly the Ulster underage scouting & training programmes have much improved but it’s maybe pushing that consistency of what is being coached there down into the underlying clubs & schools. Consistent athletic development or S&C also key.

Also bringing others through from non rugby playing schools is hard. Pull of GAA is still strong & for those who do play within clubs they generally train say once a week & are coached by parent volunteers against a schools players who are training prob at least 3 times a week with better qualified coaching & playing more competitive games.

When it comes to underage Irish teams Leinster are dominating. Hence even if you are a talented Ulster kid but behind a Leinster player at underage Irish level you’ll not get an academy place - with potential if Leinster don’t want that player Ulster will pick up them up. Understandable & examples of it working with O’Connor & Timoney but squeezes out the home grown Ulster talent coming through. We need more at the schools & clubs level coming through at Ireland level & that’s where we need to be investing given the resources private Leinster schools throw at it.

Ulster schools side were very poor this season, hammered by everyone in sight.

Hopefully an anomaly.

But you’ve hit the mail on the head. The depth Leinster have at each underage level ensures that they are almost unbeatable. They are bringing in players almost as good as those starting and that’s when they run away. Ulster can always produce the ‘star’ player like Postlewaithe or Stockdale or mcnabney, but Leinster rarely have weaknesses in their underage squad.

[Dave]

Ireland aren't producing enough. We will see this backline soon. Nuciwank out.

JGP
Carberry
Lowe
Aki
Firsch
Hansen
Haley

[BR]

From the outside it seems as if Ulster are crying out for leadership since Best retired. Henderson is a super player, but he doesn’t seem to have that ability to galvanise others. There is a sense the team is somewhat missing its soul, there is no one players the others rally around, none of the senior forwards like Herring/Timoney seem that vocal or capable of stepping into that gap. Individually there are enough good players but they are not coming together as a collective.
Unfortunately like Munster a couple of seasons back I suspect Ulster have gone past the point of too many imports, essentially they’ve have diluted what it means to play for Ulster to the point where its play for pay rather than play for passion/pride in your place, with pay an afterthought/added bonus. When you have that kind of a culture and the choices are going to dark places to win a game or opting out but making an effort to look like you’re trying but in truth you’re not arsed, unfortunately it’s the latter that’s happening. Looking from the outside DVM is thinking about what he is spending the money on already. Murphy is fit – watched him in the warm up in the RDS a few weeks ago, didn't seem to be a bother on him - assume he is on reasonably big money too but haven’t seen much of him this season. Paying someone £150K(?) to hold tackle bags is not going to be great for squad morale. Ulster needs more Ulster and less SA/Leinster. They need to get the pride back in the jersey. The Royston Vasey approach is the way forward, 85/90% local with two or three well chosen imports to supplement the local lads, your home grown backline is to die for. There is obviously young talent there, it is being brought through in certain positions but not others. The Ulster schools cup standard is still excellent, the bridge between schools and the Ulster academy for forwards needs to be looked at.
&DMcF needs to bench Burns, he’s been on one leg for over a month and he is getting picked off. Cant understand why Ulster are letting him kick penalties and he is getting 20 yards when you've Stockdale there who can kick it a mile. Strange. In truth think Burns is a good squad player but is he really a No1 who is going to drive a team to a league or HEC success? I’m not convinced. Makes Healy going to Scotland all the more interesting, I’d love to know did Ulster have a genuine look or did they pass without giving it serious consideration.

I'm fairly sure that the players play for more than pay. Like most teams, they play for each other. But yes, the provincial pride thing has become less of a factor. Everyone refers to 'the club' now - does my nut in. P.O'C. talked about the fear of letting the province down, I'm not sure that is more than a sound-byte for most players today.

I also agree about the need for better on-field leaders. Ironically, though it is not another home-grown Best, we need, but another Muller.

[thecrouch]

We did win a league

Better answer please

Did you bother to read the nigh on 20 years bit??


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I did. Didn't realise 17 years = 20 years.

Fan expectation has been chronically too high for nigh on 20 years.

Ah, you also don't appear to realise what nigh on means
Carry on regardless sure, we're brill so we are


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Better answer please.

Let's stick to the rugby rather than personal insults, get a bit of debate going and improve the argument.

So our level of expectation should be based on the Ulster team during the amateur era of the 80s and 90s..... I'll assume early 90s as we did nothing after the 94 inter pros until we scraped out of our group in 99 and won a European Cup with no Justins in it.

We've won one league since Irish teams joined in 2001.

This isn't directed at yourself Soda, theres an overwhelming majority think we should be winning silverware every season.

Truth is we've never shown pedigree in the pro era to indicate we should be.

I'd be fairly confident the number of Ulster fans who think we should win trophies every season is zero.

We should be winning more than we have though. 1 trophy in 20 years is absolutely pitiful when you consider our resources, and you consider the amount of absolute dross that exists or existed in the league we play in.

The way we consistently fall short, always bottling it, always throwing it away, is remarkable. I doubt there is another club in Europe as bad as us when it comes to winning big, tight matches.

It's possible we're the worst in the world at it, never mind Europe.

[nonplussed]

I binned my season tkt ages ago, but still take my kids from time to time. They are both rugby mad and now neither are that interested in going, which saves me a fortune... long may the malaise continue

[So It Is]

I binned my season tkt ages ago, but still take my kids from time to time. They are both rugby mad and now neither are that interested in going, which saves me a fortune... long may the malaise continue

I stopped going regularly after 2018's unpleasantness. I think the UB lost a lot of credibility bowing down to BOI and non-rugby-following-shrill-twitter-types.

The only way to rebuild a bit of identity is to play more local players instead of Leinster cast offs. I think most Ulster supporters would rather watch a 6/8 Ulster born and bred pack being beaten every week, than a 2/8 Ulster born and bred pack being beaten every week.

If we are going to be mediocre, lets do it with a load of North Antrim culchies

[nonplussed]

I don't know whether I agree, I am starting to think our local lads are a big part of the problem... Have they ever reallly had to fight for position, most were stars of their minis team, stood out early in School, went through Ulster pathways, where most of the lads know they are there to provide gametime and training opposition for the few 'superstars,' where maybe only one will make it. I am friends with a number of dads who's boys are currently or have been in the underage system and they already know if they will get to the academy or not. There is too much of a fait accompli from U16 upwards. Maybe this is why, when the chips are down we dont have the dog and mentality. Is entitlement our biggest problem?

In Leinster the numbers are vast and competition is huge. The 4 big schools are churning out virtually pro atheltes every year, where only the most driven get selected. Munster is a ruthless place, where you fight for recognition at every stage and very few, if any people assume they'll make it.

Just a thought