Leinster v Ulster Mon Jan 1 5:15pm KO

[Cap'n Grumpy]

Truck n trailer

No Truck-n-trailer - there was clear separation.

Truck-n-trailer has the trailer close behind but not with the required level of binding required for a maul and the truck blocking off any engagemnet with the trailer.

This was simply a couple of their forwards who detached from the maul, and our defenders were daft enough to tackle them, when they could safely have let them continue on their merry way and try to engage with the actual maul.

Need to watch it again Capn- saw the match only once- thanks to Mervyn's link will take a look. Either way, both are illegal blocking. Certainly your analysis suggests same, preventing clear line of sight to the core of the maul and the player in possession. Basically our tacklers should've stood and gesticulated the illegal blocking

TBH, I was doing my nut about the blocking, but Grumps Junior was the one who corrected me . . .

. . . and I've made it a personal aim to learn as much from him while he still knows it all.


. . . but for the avoidance of doubt, MUM will confirm that when we're on the terrace, he (Grumps Junior) is always right when he tells me why what I'm shouting at the ref is wrong. I still shout anyway.

No longer having 20:20 vision is my excuse. Never ceases to amaze me what the boys around me claim they can see from 50m or more

Well I do still have 20:20 vision, or more correctly, 6/6 vision, (as long as my specs haven't steamed up), but yes there are some right Richard Craniums can even see straight across the pitch for offside when the play is at the other end. Or better still, screaming for offside when there hasn't even been a breakdown - but only by the opposition of course.

[solidarity]

Just watched the match again (thanks Merv.) and I'm not at all convinced about any of our back three. Addison was poor, Baloucoune was (as someone said above) flaky and Jacob was inconsistent.

Lineout throws were frequently too low, hence some of the losses.

For the second week, Billy was not at all happy about being taken off.

[Dave]

Just watched the match again (thanks Merv.) and I'm not at all convinced about any of our back three. Addison was poor, Baloucoune was (as someone said above) flaky and Jacob was inconsistent.

Lineout throws were frequently too low, hence some of the losses.

For the second week, Billy was not at all happy about being taken off.

Billy coming off for Doak was a head scratching moment.

[Big-al]

Just watched the match again (thanks Merv.) and I'm not at all convinced about any of our back three. Addison was poor, Baloucoune was (as someone said above) flaky and Jacob was inconsistent.

Lineout throws were frequently too low, hence some of the losses.

For the second week, Billy was not at all happy about being taken off.

Billy coming off for Doak was a head scratching moment.

Doak done very well though.

The length and accuracy of his territorial kicks was key to closing out the game.

[Deraless]

Seems like Kitshoff may have been involved in a bit of our attack plans based on his inside knowledge of Nienaber. He has also single handedly sorted the scrum by all accounts lol

[justinr73]

I shall be taking advantage of Ulster’s weekend off by joining the 6,000 travelling Preston fans at Stamford Bridge in the third round of the FA Cup.

Whilst the Deepdale outfit may have spent some 350 million pounds less than than the West Londoners on new blood in the summer, it is, of course, a funny old game.

In the admittedly unlikely event of Chelsea’s reserves coming unstuck by virtue of one of our numerous much maligned players creating three goals, I must remember not to alter my jaundiced opinion of him and to judge the result at the end of the season.

[Dave]

Just watched the match again (thanks Merv.) and I'm not at all convinced about any of our back three. Addison was poor, Baloucoune was (as someone said above) flaky and Jacob was inconsistent.

Lineout throws were frequently too low, hence some of the losses.

For the second week, Billy was not at all happy about being taken off.

Billy coming off for Doak was a head scratching moment.

Doak done very well though.

The length and accuracy of his territorial kicks was key to closing out the game.

I agree but it was unusual. It isn't on trend to talk up Doak though.

[CIMANFOREVER]

I shall be taking advantage of Ulster’s weekend off by joining the 6,000 travelling Preston fans at Stamford Bridge in the third round of the FA Cup.

Whilst the Deepdale outfit may have spent some 350 million pounds less than than the West Londoners on new blood in the summer, it is, of course, a funny old game.

In the admittedly unlikely event of Chelsea’s reserves coming unstuck by virtue of one of our numerous much maligned players creating three goals, I must remember not to alter my jaundiced opinion of him and to judge the result at the end of the season.

I stopped reading at Preston....

[CIMANFOREVER]

Just watched the match again (thanks Merv.) and I'm not at all convinced about any of our back three. Addison was poor, Baloucoune was (as someone said above) flaky and Jacob was inconsistent.

Lineout throws were frequently too low, hence some of the losses.

For the second week, Billy was not at all happy about being taken off.

Ditto. Leinster challenged us constantly at 2 and 4, and we continued the lobbed throw- interestingly they cut their LO before us. At least 1 throw too low, but they mainly got in front of our jumpers- really hard and flat should've been the revert. We weren't nearly as adept in challenging their jumpers and telegraphed our calls. Putting a lump like Ewers up at 2 on a flat ball is hard to defend- IE use his a#re lol...

[Jetstream]

From Babbling Brook

"It’s worth remarking on exactly what is the constituency of players under review. Through research of the individual Provincial Squads as listed on their websites, it appears that there are approximately 243 players, playing and training as Professional Rugby Players in Ireland at present. The Provincial profiles show the following:

Leinster: 45 Senior and 18 Academy players
Munster: 43 Senior and 18 Academy players
Connacht: 48 Senior and 15 Academy players
Ulster: 41 Senior and 15 Academy players

Total: 177 Senior and 66 Academy players"

If these figures are accurate we have the smallest squad of the four Provinces. We are on a very tight budget.

[rumncoke]

Sorry Capt and CI you miss the point of my criticism of Murphy it is not that he is just a bad ref he is predictable ref

I knew when Ulster scored their second try the next penalty would be against Ulster to afford leinster the opportunity to score

He penalised Ulster for failing to release the ball in a situation that leinster were never going to win a turn over and could equally well have been penalised for failing to roll away after the tackle and thus impeding the Ulster players from giving support when the ball was released

AT the next line out -maul two leinster players break from the maul and continue to be bound as they run at the Ulster player to impede the cover defence pure blocking straight and simple ( not penalised ) --leinster were taking players out/blocking would be defenders all night with immunity.

Then when scoring the leinster six goes in side ways in front of the ball carrier to block a tackle.

The second try was set up with a call for offside against Treadwell who had started his run from well behind the hind foot when Henshaw first handled the ball . Treadwell spotted he was no scrum half -- with a weak slow pass which would have meant Treadwell tackling before the ball was received and Treadwell actually stuttered his run because of the slow pass . but the major defect with this call was Treadwell Murphy saw it the eyes he had in the back of his head.

The fact that Murphy had made the call against leinster for crossing in the line made the call against Ulster for the same offence in the same place predictable

He basically like many refs in an attempt to be fair makes dubious calls because he is actually looking for the offence before it happens and convinces himself it has happen

[Cap'n Grumpy]

Sorry Capt and CI you miss the point of my criticism of Murphy it is not that he is just a bad ref he is predictable ref

Most players like playing with a predictable ref - it means they know where they stand with him. The worse refs are the ones where you haven't any idea if or when he's gonna penalise you, so you almost become afraid to try anything for fear of being penalised.

I knew when Ulster scored their second try the next penalty would be against Ulster to afford leinster the opportunity to score

Again, paranoid nonsense. If the next penalty was to be against Ulster, it would be because Ulster committed an offence that could be penalised. Ulster's fault, not Murphy bias.

He penalised Ulster for failing to release the ball in a situation that leinster were never going to win a turnover ....

Just because Leinster might not have been in a position to win a turnover, does not mean that Ulster can hold on to the ball on the ground. If we commit a penalty offence, we should expect a penalty decision. Was the reason Leinster were never gonna effect the turnover because Ulster were holding on and generally otherwise slowing it down?

... and could equally well have been penalised for failing to roll away after the tackle and thus impeding the Ulster players from giving support when the ball was released.

That argument could be made at just about every breakdown. The ref has to decide which if any of these occurs; tackler releases ball carrier once his knee touches the floor; ball carrier releases the ball as soon as he is tackled (touches the floor), but is permitted time to to place the ball; and tackler makes an effort to roll away after tackle is complete, although generally only if he is blocking the ball from being played. Ref has to decide which, if any offence occured first. Sometimes you get them, sometimes you don't. In your case, I would suggest that in general you are looking at the tackle area through Ulser rose-tinted specs. Something, I confess, we all do to a greater or lesser extent at different times.

AT the next line out -maul two leinster players break from the maul and continue to be bound as they run at the Ulster player to impede the cover defence pure blocking straight and simple ( not penalised ) --leinster were taking players out/blocking would be defenders all night with immunity.

That incident has been discussed at greater length already and our positions are already on record.

The second try was set up with a call for offside against Treadwell who had started his run from well behind the hind foot when Henshaw first handled the ball . Treadwell spotted he was no scrum half -- with a weak slow pass which would have meant Treadwell tackling before the ball was received and Treadwell actually stuttered his run because of the slow pass . but the major defect with this call was Treadwell Murphy saw it the eyes he had in the back of his head.

Not sure exactly which is the problem you are highlighting here - 1, 2 or 3 of 3?
I don't recall the Tredwell offside bit as you describe it, so will not comment. I do vaguely recall him being offside once when he looked to have been onside, but had been offside initially but never actually got himself back onside, such was the way the play evolved.
If a weak slow pass, results in someone being tackled before the ball is received, it is still the responsibility of the tackler not to make contact until the ball has been received. It is not an excuse for a tackler to say he tackled early because the pass was late.
Your main complaint appears to be that the referee saw the offence out of the eyes in the back of his head - or more commonly known as his assistant referee(s). That's what they're there for, so if he uses them, it shouldn't come as any great surprise.

The fact that Murphy had made the call against leinster for crossing in the line made the call against Ulster for the same offence in the same place predictable

Some would call it consistent rather than predictable - see my first point. I note your gripe is that fact that he made the call, not that Ulster didn't commit the offence.

He basically like many refs in an attempt to be fair makes dubious calls because he is actually looking for the offence before it happens and convinces himself it has happen

So you admit he is like many refs? I would suggest that "dubious calls" are made when they are not in agreement with the observer (the fans), because the referee genuinely believes he has made the right decision. He does not go through a game thinking, "what must I do to attempt to be fair?" (your words). I would further suggest that all referees at different times will be looking for an offence before it happens, simply because they know that a particular team is likely to commit it. That may be because they have done it several times in the game already, or because a team captain (during) or team coach (before) a game has highlighted soemthing of concern to the officials. It does not mean the ref will give the penalty just becaus ethey afe alert to it, but because it has actually happened.

I suggest one such thing which happened in Ulster's favour was that Munster complained after their match with Leinster last week about Cian Healy turning in illegally at scrum times. I heard it suggested that Ulster had ensured Frank was aware of that before hand, with the result (and you could see it very clearly on TV), that Ulster got the penalty the very first time Healy tried this, and it prevented him from doing it through the match.

You have to make up your mind, Rumn - youre insinuations that you knew what Murphy was gonna do at different times implies bias, but you later accuse him of being like other refs. So unless you're accusing all refs of bias, you need to decide which it actually is.

We have seen a lot of Frank in recent weeks both as referee and as assistant referee - judging by results in this matches (and other matches in recent years), I don't see a lot to fear when he's named to officiate our matches. Of course he could have a bad game - anyone can - but that's a different kettle of fish to saying the man's biased.

Plus he is assessed by at least one referee assessor, and as many as 3 or 4, for his handling of every game, and any errors will be pointed out to him . . . unless, of course all the assessors are biased too.

Finally, the match was played in Dublin. As fans, we do our utmost to get in the ear of the officials to try to milk penalties that either might have been missed, or even where no offence has occurred. I know I yell for some perceived offences when I know in my heart of hearts, nothing happened. I don't expect the ref to give me/us the decision, but I suppose I'm hoping that the next 50:50 will go in our favour. It's called home advantage for a reason, so we shouldn't be surprised that we didn't get everything the way we would have hoped even though it was at OurDS. It was still full of Mexicans doing their best to get in the ears of the officials, just like we do.

[CIMANFOREVER]

Thanks for taking the time Capn.

The only comment I'll make is ref Healey- history of scrummaging at an angle- Munster correctly complained about, Murphy aware, and did his job, end of. If Ulster correctly flagged concerns to Murphy, then they correctly played the card against an illegal act.
Leinster are past masters at it.
Nothing to see here

[jean valjean]

The knock on from ewers in the jackel that led to the final scrum / penalty should probably have been a penalty to ulster, as the player on the ground was still holding on to the ball as he tried to lift it (causing the knock on).
Many refs will however not end a match on a penalty against the home side unless really clear and obvious and Frank was no different. How many times do teams get to go through multiple phases with the clock in the red? Bit like a soccer ref not ending the game when the losing team is attacking despite the time being up. Had Byrne made the kick to touch there was a strong probability leinster would have kept possession long enough to eak a penalty to win.

[rumncoke]

Capt are you trying to prove Murphy isn't predictable then you nit picking post is pointless if your trying to convince me Murphy doesn't look for penalties your post is pointless if your trying to convince me he miss obvious serious offences then the post is pointless.

My point is that Murphy looks for penalties - misses obvious serious infringements and is predictable not that he is biased -- which he could be - since leinster at 60-70 % of their defensive were off side and were only called once for No 8 inform the side and nearly knocking him over in the process as looked face to face at Cooney and waited for him to go for the ball to go for the ball.

eg He penalises Ulster for a dubious non release after a kick off in the !st half and then Blows Leinster for the a similar dubious non release after a kick off in the 2nd . Ie at a kick off the ball is fielded and the carrier quickly tackled both carrier and tackler have close support and the ball gets buried under bodies so he penalises the carrier except truth is the" Jackling " team were never going to win the ball. It's consistent but it's rubbish