Ospreys v Ulster Sat Feb 15

Talk about the men in white, and everything Ulster!!

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skiboo
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Re: Ospreys v Ulster Sat Feb 15

Post by skiboo » Sun Feb 16, 2020 5:45 am

We have persisted with Shannahan for far to long. The gap between him and Cooney is vast as is the gap between him and any other "reserve " 9 in Ireland.
The team not only suffers but also has to change structure considerably to compensate for his deficiencies particularly when we are on the back foot. While he is brave regretfully he is a defensive liability and repeats mistakes ...... How many times have we seen his kicks charged down to present opponents with a score or put us under severe defensive pressure. Last night of course we had two chargedowns,Burns and Shanahan, which resulted in two tries gifted.(I'm still no certain about Burns but he did start with his leg heavily strapped.)
The management team are not fools maybe they see something in Shanahan i just do not see or perhaps they have just got to work with what they have. If that's the case it appears to be different to how other provinces are treated as Shanahan has been for me a weak link for a number of seasons.

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BR
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Re: Ospreys v Ulster Sat Feb 15

Post by BR » Sun Feb 16, 2020 9:48 am

jean valjean wrote:
Sat Feb 15, 2020 10:26 pm
BR wrote:
Sat Feb 15, 2020 9:28 pm
In defence of Shananananan - he did nothing wrong for that penalty. We wuz robbed.
It was a dumb pen to give away. He panicked when he dropped the ball and made it worse by playing it on the ground. Clear penalty.
Depends on refs interpretation of immediate. Clear penalty at the time for me, not so much on rewatching.
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Re: Ospreys v Ulster Sat Feb 15

Post by rumncoke » Sun Feb 16, 2020 10:58 am

The penalty call actually depends on whether you consider a ruck had been formed -- away from home with Mitrea as referee -- it was never in doubt -- that the call would be a penalty. -- you can't play high risk ( iffy calls ) away from home.

At Ravenhill/kingspan he might have got away with it .

Ulster have never been a good wet ball rugby team for years . A wet ball assists a defending team because the service is always going to be slower from the base of ruck/maul/scrum.

Away from home the home side will normally play a game which will slow the opposition recycle, with a degree of immunity shown by the referee thus a wet ball slows the recycle even further regardless of who is playing scrum half.

When Ulster took the lead the kick ball /tennis is an obvious indication that neither side wanted to have possession in their own half, which is fair enough, except the quality and type of kick being used was totally wrong -- the ball should have been run back as far as possible by Ulster and then kicked low along the ground -- not kicked from deep long and high straight into the arms of awaiting member of the opposition.

A day like that you kick low along the ground making use of the wet surface and wet ball to provide the mishandles .
( Its course rugby at its best)
I did indicate i would have preferred to see the game cancelled because in that weather the game can be a lottery and Ulster seldom have the winning ticket in those conditions.
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rocky
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Re: Ospreys v Ulster Sat Feb 15

Post by rocky » Sun Feb 16, 2020 11:41 am

skiboo wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 5:45 am
We have persisted with Shannahan for far to long. The gap between him and Cooney is vast as is the gap between him and any other "reserve " 9 in Ireland.
The team not only suffers but also has to change structure considerably to compensate for his deficiencies particularly when we are on the back foot. While he is brave regretfully he is a defensive liability and repeats mistakes ...... How many times have we seen his kicks charged down to present opponents with a score or put us under severe defensive pressure. Last night of course we had two chargedowns,Burns and Shanahan, which resulted in two tries gifted.(I'm still no certain about Burns but he did start with his leg heavily strapped.)
The management team are not fools maybe they see something in Shanahan i just do not see or perhaps they have just got to work with what they have. If that's the case it appears to be different to how other provinces are treated as Shanahan has been for me a weak link for a number of seasons.
Think it was Faddes, not Burns, whose kick was charged down.
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UlsterNo9
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Re: Ospreys v Ulster Sat Feb 15

Post by UlsterNo9 » Sun Feb 16, 2020 12:26 pm

rumncoke wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 10:58 am
The penalty call actually depends on whether you consider a ruck had been formed -- away from home with Mitrea as referee -- it was never in doubt -- that the call would be a penalty. -- you can't play high risk ( iffy calls ) away from home.

He was off his feet, played the ball on the ground. Stone wall penalty!
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Re: Ospreys v Ulster Sat Feb 15

Post by rumncoke » Sun Feb 16, 2020 4:29 pm

Law 13

Players who go to ground to gather the ball must play the ball ( not kick )

The question is Did he go to ground to gather the ball or had a ruck formed ?

The law does not say a person going to ground to gather the ball must do so immediately only he should make the ball available to play .

With Mitrea he had zero chance of not being penalised .

Playing the ball on the ground is not an automatic penalty if it were every tackled player would be penalised .
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Re: Ospreys v Ulster Sat Feb 15

Post by mea97mb » Sun Feb 16, 2020 4:51 pm

rumncoke wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 4:29 pm
Law 13

Players who go to ground to gather the ball must play the ball ( not kick )

The question is Did he go to ground to gather the ball or had a ruck formed ?

The law does not say a person going to ground to gather the ball must do so immediately only he should make the ball available to play .

With Mitrea he had zero chance of not being penalised .

Playing the ball on the ground is not an automatic penalty if it were every tackled player would be penalised .
He did not go to ground to play the ball, he was already on the ground hence penalty right call.

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Re: Ospreys v Ulster Sat Feb 15

Post by Dharper » Sun Feb 16, 2020 5:25 pm

For me it was a penalty all day long. That said we should never have been in that position in the match anyway, where that one brain fart cost the game. We should have pinned them as much as possible in their 22, giving them defensive line outs In Those high winds and put on a jumper at the front, and wait for the mistake. Our general kicking was shocking in execution.
Faddes has been very disappointing, absolutely no signs of a super rugby pedigree. Yes he can finish, but everything else seems optional. He looks bang average at pro 14 level, and frankly I’d rather invest the game time in a pup. He needs a boot in the hole. He is a total liability at 13/15.

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Re: Ospreys v Ulster Sat Feb 15

Post by SparkyClarky » Sun Feb 16, 2020 6:10 pm

Two biggest brain farts of the day for me we’re obviously Shanners then McBurney letting them out of their 22 by stupidly running off side so blatantly. However on their own they didn’t cost us the game.

From the start we were naive / stupid with penalty after penalty given away.
Ospreys showed hunger and a bit off dog as if their lives counted on it while we sauntered around the pitch as if the game was a given.
However even at that after the first quarter we had have lifted our tempo, aggression and urgency it would have never come down to the last kick.

If as rumoured Andrews is on his way out they better get Tom Stewart in before Adam, for me he is another Cauldwell penalty machine. I’ve never been a fan of small Paul but he would still be ahead of Shanahan. He spends so much time making a decision defences are reset time after time. Send him to watch Finley in the Under 20’s he might just learn something.

On a positive note Bill Johnston gets better with each outing.

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solidarity
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Re: Ospreys v Ulster Sat Feb 15

Post by solidarity » Sun Feb 16, 2020 7:01 pm

Rather than blame individuals or look to individual incidents, I wonder if we went there with the game won in our minds and couldn't quite believe that Ospreys were fully fired up. As Sparky says, Ospreys wanted it more than we did and we just didn't seem to be able to shake of the disbelief in the first half. The second half was better but again, when we went ahead, we assumed that normal service had been resumed and the match was won.

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Re: Ospreys v Ulster Sat Feb 15

Post by UlsterNo9 » Sun Feb 16, 2020 11:42 pm

solidarity wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 7:01 pm
Rather than blame individuals or look to individual incidents, I wonder if we went there with the game won in our minds and couldn't quite believe that Ospreys were fully fired up. As Sparky says, Ospreys wanted it more than we did and we just didn't seem to be able to shake of the disbelief in the first half. The second half was better but again, when we went ahead, we assumed that normal service had been resumed and the match was won.
Our selection with McGrath and Murphy on the bench set the tone mentality wise. You've no right playing a weakened team away from home against anyone ANYONE in the Pro14 and expect a win.
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Re: Ospreys v Ulster Sat Feb 15

Post by TopPoster » Mon Feb 17, 2020 10:05 am

But then again, if you want to be up there is the business end of league and Europe with the big boys consistently, a team should be able to put out a relatively weakened team against the worst team in the competition and get a win. Leinster 3rds would have come away with a BP win no doubt.

It was by no means the Ulster 2nds out there.

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Re: Ospreys v Ulster Sat Feb 15

Post by rumncoke » Mon Feb 17, 2020 10:39 am

Watch it again -- he wasn't tackled therefore why did he go to ground ?-- only logically call--- is to secure and ball and then play the ball which he did .. unfortunately in front of the wrong referee --

A player on the ground is allowed to play the ball --except in a ruck or maul --it is of course a variation of the old hands in scrum law which has ceased to apply to the ruck provided the player is not the tackler and is on his feet --- hence the first question -- had a ruck formed ? Since the first criteria for a ruck is a tackle -- there being no tackle therefore there a ruck could not have formed -- What existed was a loose ball situation -- where a player on the ground can play the ball He can not and is not allowed to make the ball unplayable under law 13.
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Re: Ospreys v Ulster Sat Feb 15

Post by UlsterNo9 » Mon Feb 17, 2020 2:49 pm

rumncoke wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 10:39 am
Watch it again -- he wasn't tackled therefore why did he go to ground ?-- only logically call--- is to secure and ball and then play the ball which he did .. unfortunately in front of the wrong referee --

A player on the ground is allowed to play the ball --except in a ruck or maul --it is of course a variation of the old hands in scrum law which has ceased to apply to the ruck provided the player is not the tackler and is on his feet --- hence the first question -- had a ruck formed ? Since the first criteria for a ruck is a tackle -- there being no tackle therefore there a ruck could not have formed -- What existed was a loose ball situation -- where a player on the ground can play the ball He can not and is not allowed to make the ball unplayable under law 13.
Just plain old wrong Rum, there doesn't have to be a ruck. The game is played only by players who are on their feet. Players, who go to ground to gather the ball or who go to ground with the ball, must immediately get up with the ball. Sanction: Penalty.

https://laws.worldrugby.org/?law=13&language=EN

Take your pick from 13.1, 13.2 or 13.3, you'll find you're incorrect.

No ruck required. He was still on the ground sitting on his hole when the referee correctly blew for a penalty, with no attempt to get back on his feet.
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Re: Ospreys v Ulster Sat Feb 15

Post by rumncoke » Mon Feb 17, 2020 4:39 pm

His action was permissible under law 13 -1 (b and c )-- he went to ground to gather the ball. he was not tackled nobody had been tackled and the ball was loose.-- he went to ground gathered and played the ball all permissible under Law 13 -1 (b and c) clause 13-1 (a) includes the very important word --- Or -- or b or c.he doesn't have to get up with the ball.
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