Ulster in the Challenge Cup

Talk about the men in white, and everything Ulster!!

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allezlesverres
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Re: Ulster in the Challenge Cup

Post by allezlesverres » Tue May 04, 2021 3:18 pm

I expect this to be an unpopular opinion but I didn't think it was a red card. I thought he was reaching for the ball intending to pick it up on the run, Cooney dives in and gets there first and Nadolo pulls his arm back to try and avoid contact with Cooney. The arm was going backwards to try and avoid the contact. It was a rugby collision for me and I have absolutely no doubt if the shoe was on the other foot and it had been Marcell knocking out their 9, the majority here would be of the same view. Nadolo reaching for the ball to pick it up on the run is no different to him kicking at it to hack it on or diving on it himself - both of which would have resulted in the same or worse outcomes. If Cooney is entitled to dive on it to secure possession, Nadolo must be just as entitled to do so. I think the injury is a function of Cooney's bravery, not foul play by Nadolo. I heard some people saying things to the effect that it should have been at least a yellow and I think while you can argue red card or not, you can't make any sensible case for a yellow. If it was foul play, it was elbow to the head so straight red - yellow could never come into it. I wonder if they started doing Orange cards would this have been a candidate. I think Orange cards could have a place because there are lots of Red cards that are harsh ones and influence the outcome too much. An Orange card could be given for a mitigated Red card offence, or a double yellow and result in a 20 min sin bin and the offender being substituted.

It was certainly a turning point in the match and although Alby was poor, I dont think he can be blamed for it alone. The forwards started getting bullied around the contact and in fairness a lot of that was Leicester combining their forwards better and latching well. They got steady gainline and we stopped dominating the contact and Alby probably felt obliged to kick a lot of possession because we couldn't punch sufficient holes in them to tie up defenders.

Those stats make hard reading though. Only Ulster could have those stats and still lose.

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Dave
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Re: Ulster in the Challenge Cup

Post by Dave » Tue May 04, 2021 5:19 pm

Opinions don't matter. Only the facts matter. The facts are he went into contact with a stiff arm away from his body. The point of contact was with the head. Therefore, a red card by the letter of the law. No disputing facts have been presented. Only opinion.

He can't realistically doing anything with the ball with a stiff arm unless playing volleyball.
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jean valjean
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Re: Ulster in the Challenge Cup

Post by jean valjean » Tue May 04, 2021 5:29 pm

Assume we would have heard of a citing by now?

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Re: Ulster in the Challenge Cup

Post by Dave » Tue May 04, 2021 6:07 pm

It seems rare that missed offences get cited these days. Nothing about Genge either, after he did the very same thing Warwick was sent off for vs the bluenoses. Warwick's red was upheld by the citing officials. BT sport included it in Genge's highlights reel.

Mickey mouse cup anyway.
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Re: Ulster in the Challenge Cup

Post by Epica » Tue May 04, 2021 9:04 pm

Jared Payne: Ulster defence coach says team 'stopped playing' in Challenge Cup semi-final collapse - https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/56979448

Wonder if these 'choice words' were from the coaches or player to player. Maybe it's something of nothing but don't think it would be quite as prominent in the article if it was a throwaway comment.

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Re: Ulster in the Challenge Cup

Post by justinr73 » Thu May 06, 2021 2:40 am

I see Ferris is having his say on the 42.....

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Re: Ulster in the Challenge Cup

Post by Bart S » Thu May 06, 2021 10:02 am

Read that.

Always feels like he has to be hard hitting.

Tom O'Toole has a lot to work on of course - he'll know himself he isn't even 1st choice for ulster but widely acknowledged as having a lot of potential. Why not encourage the guy than just blast him, when he came through the Academy.


Somewhat ironic that I remember him bigging up Matty Rea earlier in the season after a load of strong carries at home to Benetton (I think).

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Re: Ulster in the Challenge Cup

Post by Dave » Thu May 06, 2021 10:58 am

Usual guff from Ferris. Has a pop at player he doesn't like, same comments about the academy needs to produce more forwards and more obvious comments about Ulster not winning trophies.

Reasonable point about giving game time to Doak et al.

The same lines are being trotted out by every pundit. The added pressure for Ulster is that they are expected to field a team of mostly homegrown players that can compete on a European stage. Leinster have been the only Irish side to do this. This expectation is not on the likes of La Rochelle or Toulose. It's time to give it up.

Before even considering winning anything, as minimum we need 4/5 quality NIQs plus players coming up from the Academy plus the other Irish players. I realise this isn't financially viable but that is what would be required to even be competitive. Overseas recruitment has been just not good enough. If we can't afford top quality there is no point bringing in some average player probably still on big money.

There are no easy solutions here but 1F and other pundits need to stop slabbering the same old rubbish. It's just boring now.
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Re: Ulster in the Challenge Cup

Post by jean valjean » Thu May 06, 2021 11:10 am

There are 2 trophies available to ulster in any season. To win one you have to be consistently better than leinster as well as beating them in a one off game, and in the other you again need to beat possibly leinster and the best of England and France. A bit of realism from the pundits and fans is needed but sure that doesn't get clicks and comments.

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Dave
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Re: Ulster in the Challenge Cup

Post by Dave » Thu May 06, 2021 7:23 pm

jean valjean wrote:There are 2 trophies available to ulster in any season. To win one you have to be consistently better than leinster as well as beating them in a one off game, and in the other you again need to beat possibly leinster and the best of England and France. A bit of realism from the pundits and fans is needed but sure that doesn't get clicks and comments.

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I would like to see another stab at the Parker Pen tbh. There will be no way to manufacture that outcome so we will have to see how the Heiny campaign fairs out.
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solidarity
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Re: Ulster in the Challenge Cup

Post by solidarity » Thu May 06, 2021 7:44 pm

Dave wrote:
Thu May 06, 2021 7:23 pm
jean valjean wrote:There are 2 trophies available to ulster in any season. To win one you have to be consistently better than leinster as well as beating them in a one off game, and in the other you again need to beat possibly leinster and the best of England and France. A bit of realism from the pundits and fans is needed but sure that doesn't get clicks and comments.

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I would like to see another stab at the Parker Pen tbh. There will be no way to manufacture that outcome so we will have to see how the Heiny campaign fairs out.
I agree. I'd like another run at the Parker Pen. Realistically we're not going anywhere with the big boys but the second level is a real possibility.

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Re: Ulster in the Challenge Cup

Post by Bart S » Fri May 07, 2021 3:49 pm

jean valjean wrote:
Thu May 06, 2021 11:10 am
There are 2 trophies available to ulster in any season. To win one you have to be consistently better than leinster as well as beating them in a one off game, and in the other you again need to beat possibly leinster and the best of England and France. A bit of realism from the pundits and fans is needed but sure that doesn't get clicks and comments.

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Connacht, Scarlets and Glasgow have all managed to win the league at times when Leinster were a major force in europe so not impossible. Of course the SA teams will make it harder but Ulster have to aim high.

Ulster were good enough to make the Heiny Qf's in 2019 and 2020. That's where we need to be, not aspiring to be in the parler pen which is a clearly inferior competition.

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Re: Ulster in the Challenge Cup

Post by allezlesverres » Fri May 07, 2021 4:06 pm

Dave wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 5:19 pm
Opinions don't matter. Only the facts matter. The facts are he went into contact with a stiff arm away from his body. The point of contact was with the head. Therefore, a red card by the letter of the law. No disputing facts have been presented. Only opinion.

He can't realistically doing anything with the ball with a stiff arm unless playing volleyball.
"went into contact" - not a fact. He was reaching for a loose ball, not going into contact. Contact was accidental.
"stiff arm" - also not a fact. His arm was retreating backwards.

The arm was away from the body but in fairness to the guy he can't pick the ball up with his arm by his side.

Also, opinions clearly do matter, particularly the opinions of the ref, TMO and apparently now the citing commissioner too.

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Re: Ulster in the Challenge Cup

Post by justinr73 » Fri May 07, 2021 5:05 pm

Bart S wrote:
Thu May 06, 2021 10:02 am
Read that.

Always feels like he has to be hard hitting.

Tom O'Toole has a lot to work on of course - he'll know himself he isn't even 1st choice for ulster but widely acknowledged as having a lot of potential. Why not encourage the guy than just blast him, when he came through the Academy.


Somewhat ironic that I remember him bigging up Matty Rea earlier in the season after a load of strong carries at home to Benetton (I think).
TOT has been granted a right of reply in the paper today.

Unsurprisingly, it’s the scrum that he has found the most challenging. He’s still only 22 of course.

Hope he goes well tonight.

He’s got more caps that Marcell, interestingly enough.

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Re: Ulster in the Challenge Cup

Post by Dave » Fri May 07, 2021 6:13 pm


allezlesverres wrote:
Dave wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 5:19 pm
Opinions don't matter. Only the facts matter. The facts are he went into contact with a stiff arm away from his body. The point of contact was with the head. Therefore, a red card by the letter of the law. No disputing facts have been presented. Only opinion.

He can't realistically doing anything with the ball with a stiff arm unless playing volleyball.
"went into contact" - not a fact. He was reaching for a loose ball, not going into contact. Contact was accidental.
"stiff arm" - also not a fact. His arm was retreating backwards.

The arm was away from the body but in fairness to the guy he can't pick the ball up with his arm by his side.

Also, opinions clearly do matter, particularly the opinions of the ref, TMO and apparently now the citing commissioner too.
WTF??? How are you denying there was contact? Cooney was knocked into next year. His arm WAS stiff ImageImageImage, he didn't pull it out of the way in time he left it there. You are trying to dispute facts with more opinions. Accidental? An opinion. Intent doesn't matter- how many times this need to be said. He was reaching for the ball with one hand? With a straight arm? Show me someone catching a rugby ball like that...

Jaco Pyper was talking about responding to the facts only in the Stormers v Sharks game. Worth a watch for some sensible reffing.
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