Ulster Rugby - driven into the ground

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Freddie Benson
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Re: Ulster Rugby - driven into the ground

Post by Freddie Benson » Mon Apr 19, 2010 9:14 am

For all the success of Munster and Leinster, Scarlets and Ospreys play to half full grounds at best. Granted Liberty is shared with football, but brand spanking new stadium does not always equal full houses every week. Need to have some 'product' on the pitch.
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Re: Ulster Rugby - driven into the ground

Post by mikerob » Mon Apr 19, 2010 9:18 am

aarons wrote:
mikerob wrote:
Big-al wrote: there's no way Cardiff has a higher attendance than us
They do. So far this season Cardiff has a total attendance of 85,079 while Ulster has 72,016.

Both have had 8 home games so far.

Ulster won't make up this difference so will fall to be the 4th best attended ML club with Cardiff, Leinster and Munster ahead.

The ML has a big difference in attendances between the local derbies and the rest of the games and a big stadium allows a team to pull the crowds for the most popular games. Cardiff had 15k+ for their games against the Ospreys and the Dragons.
if you read gwlad you'll see a lot of people claiming those cardiff figures are entirely ficticious. cardiff is a good example of how 'if we build it they will come' isn't always true. thank god ulster are staying at ravers and not moving to some tedious identikit soccer stadium.
First time I've seen gwlad quoted as a source to be believed.. :scratch:

If Ulster had the opportunity of moving to a tedious identikit soccer stadium, I'm sure they would have been in there like a shot rather than the long drawn out saga of trying to upgrade Ravenhill to a capacity that will still see Ulster behind the leading ML teams.

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Re: Ulster Rugby - driven into the ground

Post by aarons » Mon Apr 19, 2010 10:23 am

mikerob wrote: First time I've seen gwlad quoted as a source to be believed.. :scratch:

If Ulster had the opportunity of moving to a tedious identikit soccer stadium, I'm sure they would have been in there like a shot rather than the long drawn out saga of trying to upgrade Ravenhill to a capacity that will still see Ulster behind the leading ML teams.
it's a combination of reading gwlad and looking at games at the stadium with my own eyes!

i mostly agree with your argument mike but if you're really suggesting cardiff is a model to follow then i think you're on the wrong track. a 15,000 seater revamped ravenhill will be ten times as good a stadium as what cardiff have, or the ospreys for that matter.

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Re: Ulster Rugby - driven into the ground

Post by mikerob » Mon Apr 19, 2010 11:01 am

aarons wrote:
i mostly agree with your argument mike but if you're really suggesting cardiff is a model to follow then i think you're on the wrong track. a 15,000 seater revamped ravenhill will be ten times as good a stadium as what cardiff have, or the ospreys for that matter.
Its a purely hypothetical argument given that Ulster doesn't have a new stadium to call on or even have a 15k Ravenhill but a 15k stadium is clearly not 10 times as good as a 25k stadium when it comes to accommodating crowds.

Thinking that 15k will be good enough for the next 10-15 years is very short sighted.

UR need to be pragmatic and if the realistic choice is between a 15k Ravenhill or nothing... then clearly a 15k Ravenhill is the right choice but they shouldn't kid themselves that teams with bigger stadiums will continue to pull away financially.

Ultimately its the team with the red hand that matters, not the stadium concrete whether it is new or crumbling.

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Re: Ulster Rugby - driven into the ground

Post by aarons » Mon Apr 19, 2010 11:16 am

mikerob wrote:
aarons wrote:
i mostly agree with your argument mike but if you're really suggesting cardiff is a model to follow then i think you're on the wrong track. a 15,000 seater revamped ravenhill will be ten times as good a stadium as what cardiff have, or the ospreys for that matter.
Its a purely hypothetical argument given that Ulster doesn't have a new stadium to call on or even have a 15k Ravenhill but a 15k stadium is clearly not 10 times as good as a 25k stadium when it comes to accommodating crowds.

Thinking that 15k will be good enough for the next 10-15 years is very short sighted.

UR need to be pragmatic and if the realistic choice is between a 15k Ravenhill or nothing... then clearly a 15k Ravenhill is the right choice but they shouldn't kid themselves that teams with bigger stadiums will continue to pull away financially.

Ultimately its the team with the red hand that matters, not the stadium concrete whether it is new or crumbling.
i think what the welsh experience teaches us is that trying to go from 10,000 to 30,000, with a team who aren't winning games, is impossible. yes 15,000 is shortsighted, but Ulster can't go all the way to 30k in one jump.

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Re: Ulster Rugby - driven into the ground

Post by mikerob » Mon Apr 19, 2010 11:38 am

aarons wrote:
i think what the welsh experience teaches us is that trying to go from 10,000 to 30,000, with a team who aren't winning games, is impossible. yes 15,000 is shortsighted, but Ulster can't go all the way to 30k in one jump.
The Welsh teams don't have a 30k stadium either (except for the MilStad). Cardiff and the Liberty are just over 26k and 20k respectively.

Viewing rugby from the ends in any size of stadium is generally a poor experience so the "good" viewing seats will be about 66% to 75% of this. Also, the big paydays in the ML are the derby games, so a stadium size shouldn't be based upon a theoretical average attendance.

As I said, its all hypothetical but 15k should be viewed as an intermediate point, not the final destination.

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Re: Ulster Rugby - driven into the ground

Post by stickinout » Mon Apr 19, 2010 11:45 am

mikerob wrote:
aarons wrote:
i mostly agree with your argument mike but if you're really suggesting cardiff is a model to follow then i think you're on the wrong track. a 15,000 seater revamped ravenhill will be ten times as good a stadium as what cardiff have, or the ospreys for that matter.
Its a purely hypothetical argument given that Ulster doesn't have a new stadium to call on or even have a 15k Ravenhill but a 15k stadium is clearly not 10 times as good as a 25k stadium when it comes to accommodating crowds.

Thinking that 15k will be good enough for the next 10-15 years is very short term. Ultimately its the team with the red hand that matters, not the stadium concrete whether it is new or crumbling.

UR need to be pragmatic and if the realistic choice is between a 15k Ravenhill or nothing... then clearly a 15k Ravenhill is the right choice but they shouldn't kid themselves that teams with bigger stadiums will continue to pull away financially.
Have to agree with MR here, but others on the forum have stated that the hoped for revenue generated by the new stand and it's corporate boxes will more than make up for the lower capacity when compared with Munster, Leinster, etc. Has anybody come across projected estimated earnings for the new stand? I would like to know at full occupancy, what numbers UR expect to make out of the new stand? Will it be the equivalent of a 20k stadium with no corporate hospitality?

Initially, it sounded like a smart move as there were planning restrictions for a bigger stand, but to me, it's as if UR are slowly putting themselves into a financial straight jacket. Their thinking seems to be, right we can't build what we want to build so let's settle for a smaller corporate box idea. Instead they should have looked elsewhere for a new Ravenhill if Ravenhill wasn't big enough AND develop the corporate box idea also. But that doesn't mean the only option was to buy into the combined sports stadium, they could have looked to build their own with a loan and the selling of Ravenhill. I know that sounds sacrilegious but we need to look to the future not the past. Okay, i realise the building bubble is over and hindsight is a wonderful thing but a few years ago it was a real option. They're kidding themselves if they think they can keep up with the big boys in Irish rugby with a 15 k stadium for the next 10 - 15 years.

Does anybody know if Munster have any further building plans for Thomond to increase capacity? i would imagine their next step would be to build another huge stand to match the one they've already got, or is that not on the cards?

MR, did you mean "they shouldn't kid themselves that teams with bigger stadiums will continue to pull away" or "they shouldn't kid themselves that teams with bigger stadiums will not continue to pull away"

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Re: Ulster Rugby - driven into the ground

Post by stickinout » Mon Apr 19, 2010 11:47 am

mikerob wrote:
aarons wrote:
i think what the welsh experience teaches us is that trying to go from 10,000 to 30,000, with a team who aren't winning games, is impossible. yes 15,000 is shortsighted, but Ulster can't go all the way to 30k in one jump.
The Welsh teams don't have a 30k stadium either (except for the MilStad). Cardiff and the Liberty are just over 26k and 20k respectively.

Viewing rugby from the ends in any size of stadium is generally a poor experience so the "good" viewing seats will be about 66% to 75% of this. Also, the big paydays in the ML are the derby games, so a stadium size shouldn't be based upon a theoretical average attendance.

As I said, its all hypothetical but 15k should be viewed as an intermediate point, not the final destination.
If the 15 k is to be viewed as an intermediate point, what in your opinion needs to be the final destination?

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Re: Ulster Rugby - driven into the ground

Post by mikerob » Mon Apr 19, 2010 11:48 am

stickinout wrote:
MR, did you mean "they shouldn't kid themselves that teams with bigger stadiums will continue to pull away" or "they shouldn't kid themselves that teams with bigger stadiums will not continue to pull away"
Poorly phrased by me... I meant that UR shouldn't kid themselves that a 15k stadium will be enough to keep up with the big boys with bigger stadia.

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Re: Ulster Rugby - driven into the ground

Post by mikerob » Mon Apr 19, 2010 11:54 am

stickinout wrote:
If the 15 k is to be viewed as an intermediate point, what in your opinion needs to be the final destination?
My gut feel is that if UR had access to a 20-something K stadium like Munster, Cardiff, Os etc. we would be in a great position. That means about 15k of good seats and 10k of poor seats at the ends.

As I said, its all theoretical and stadium discussions come around regular as clockwork on this site with very little really new being discussed.

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Re: Ulster Rugby - driven into the ground

Post by Snipe Watson » Mon Apr 19, 2010 11:57 am

I still see a 'national stadium' being built at some point. It can be used when it suits. If this happens, 15k is perfect if they do it right.
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Re: Ulster Rugby - driven into the ground

Post by Freddie Benson » Mon Apr 19, 2010 11:58 am

stickinout - TP has 2 big stands already, there is some terracing behind both in-goal areas. I don't know the feasibility of increasing those.
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Re: Ulster Rugby - driven into the ground

Post by stickinout » Mon Apr 19, 2010 12:08 pm

mikerob wrote:
stickinout wrote:
MR, did you mean "they shouldn't kid themselves that teams with bigger stadiums will continue to pull away" or "they shouldn't kid themselves that teams with bigger stadiums will not continue to pull away"
Poorly phrased by me... I meant that UR shouldn't kid themselves that a 15k stadium will be enough to keep up with the big boys with bigger stadia.
No problem, just wanted to be sure.

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Re: Ulster Rugby - driven into the ground

Post by stickinout » Mon Apr 19, 2010 12:12 pm

Snipe Watson wrote:I still see a 'national stadium' being built at some point. It can be used when it suits. If this happens, 15k is perfect if they do it right.
Good point, Ravers would be perfect at 15k if we have access to say a 25 k stadium elsewhere. I wonder if government funding will be requested for the 15k rebuild of Ravers? If so, would that not mean that the government would be less willing to pay out again for a national stadium only for it to be used sporadically by one of the three big sports?

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Re: Ulster Rugby - driven into the ground

Post by stickinout » Mon Apr 19, 2010 12:15 pm

Freddie Benson wrote:stickinout - TP has 2 big stands already, there is some terracing behind both in-goal areas. I don't know the feasibility of increasing those.
Thanks FB, wasn't aware of this as I haven't had the privilege to see it up close and personal. I only ever see one side with the ML tv coverage! It must look like a great stadium with the two big stands. Pity about the shower who play in it! Only kidding Shan.

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