DOES ANYONE CARE IF DARREN CAVE LEAVES ULSTER?

[Russ]

Is Mike Cockatrice?

[rocky]

That last comment was personal and totally unnecessary, Mike. You should retract it. Now kiss and make up, the two of you - please!

[mike]

That last comment was personal and totally unnecessary, Mike. You should retract it. Now kiss and make up, the two of you - please!

eh? i've had to endure weeks of patronising insults from saggy over very innocent posts on my part. He's given me loads of personal abuse and nobody said a word.

edit-Ruckover once explained that I was being sarcastic over the shaun payne comment.

so- i'm getting bored of him trying to twist valid points into stuff that suits his agenda and then dressing them up in personal insults. if he wants to play doorty..........

[mike]

Payne prefers 13 is a myth that was started by some on here just after it was announced we had signed him.

He spent his final year in S15 filling in (and doing a hell of a job) after a few injuries in the side. Before this he captained Northland from 15 and played the rest of his rugby here. When he came over he said that he was happy to play 13 if required but he preferred 15. Much like RP who could play 10 or 15, but was signed as a 9, JP signed as a 15.

MA was interviewed at the start of this season and has said...

"Jared wants to play a bit more at centre, but that is something we will worry about next year," said Anscombe.

"He has always has been a full-back.

"It was just that the (Auckland Blues) put him at centre in the last year and he got a taste for it then.

"That is a possibility going forward but at the moment we will be using him as a full-back."

There has been NO mention from the IRFU that JP is being groomed to replace BOD. The UAFC numbnut brigade have just decided because they "think" JP prefers 13 and becomes eligible for Ireland just as BOD retires that this is a given.

It may not be too far wrong, but for the moment, they are putting 2 + 2 together and coming up with 4.5

Why would IRFU ever announce that they expect a player to play a certain position? Speculation over where players should play is rife over every rugby forum in the world, it's 90% of what posters comment on. No one ever says 'wait the union hasn't specified where he might play so we can't comment'! In the interview above Anscombe states that Jared 'wants' to play more in the centre and that we will worry about 'next year'. 'Next year' could mean a multitude of things but it certainly doesn't qwell the notion that when IQ, Ireland will consider him for the 13 shirt, which he would walk into.

I don't give a fiddlers where Jared prefers to play and he is needed at 15 for Ulster. For Ireland things are different as Rob Kearney will be first choice 15 under Joe until he retires aged 42, if he wants. I want to give Joe time but it is clear from the off that he doesn't rate Cave the same way we do. The sheer fact that there are literally no contenders for the 13 shirt post BOD and that Maaak continues to try Payne there despite viewing him as a 15, would seem to suggest he is a clear favourite to take on that position come June.

it's tricky. If Kearney starts showing some attacking nous at 15 in the AI's, then the JP for RK argument goes back into it's box a bit but then the JP for BOD argument becomes more important. I think that most Ulster supporters prefer JP at 15 for Ulster but what happens if he gets more gametime at 13 for Ulster and Ireland and he is even more effective at outside centre?


it's only a question and JP may even prefer playing at 13 if you actually believe what he has said (I think).

[Spiffsson]

Payne prefers 13 is a myth that was started by some on here just after it was announced we had signed him.

He spent his final year in S15 filling in (and doing a hell of a job) after a few injuries in the side. Before this he captained Northland from 15 and played the rest of his rugby here. When he came over he said that he was happy to play 13 if required but he preferred 15. Much like RP who could play 10 or 15, but was signed as a 9, JP signed as a 15.

MA was interviewed at the start of this season and has said...

"Jared wants to play a bit more at centre, but that is something we will worry about next year," said Anscombe.

"He has always has been a full-back.

"It was just that the (Auckland Blues) put him at centre in the last year and he got a taste for it then.

"That is a possibility going forward but at the moment we will be using him as a full-back."

There has been NO mention from the IRFU that JP is being groomed to replace BOD. The UAFC numbnut brigade have just decided because they "think" JP prefers 13 and becomes eligible for Ireland just as BOD retires that this is a given.

It may not be too far wrong, but for the moment, they are putting 2 + 2 together and coming up with 4.5

Why would IRFU ever announce that they expect a player to play a certain position? Speculation over where players should play is rife over every rugby forum in the world, it's 90% of what posters comment on. No one ever says 'wait the union hasn't specified where he might play so we can't comment'! In the interview above Anscombe states that Jared 'wants' to play more in the centre and that we will worry about 'next year'. 'Next year' could mean a multitude of things but it certainly doesn't qwell the notion that when IQ, Ireland will consider him for the 13 shirt, which he would walk into.

I don't give a fiddlers where Jared prefers to play and he is needed at 15 for Ulster. For Ireland things are different as Rob Kearney will be first choice 15 under Joe until he retires aged 42, if he wants. I want to give Joe time but it is clear from the off that he doesn't rate Cave the same way we do. The sheer fact that there are literally no contenders for the 13 shirt post BOD and that Maaak continues to try Payne there despite viewing him as a 15, would seem to suggest he is a clear favourite to take on that position come June.

it's tricky. If Kearney starts showing some attacking nous at 15 in the AI's, then the JP for RK argument goes back into it's box a bit but then the JP for BOD argument becomes more important. I think that most Ulster supporters prefer JP at 15 for Ulster but what happens if he gets more gametime at 13 for Ulster and Ireland and he is even more effective at outside centre?


it's only a question and JP may even prefer playing at 13 if you actually believe what he has said (I think).

Yes. Kearney has not shown any attacking nous for some time. He went off the boil a couple of seasons ago and was very lucky to make the Lions tour, with better fullbacks left at home. He is a shadow of the player who toured with the 2009 lions in SA. He is still solid enough enough under the high ball but that's about it and he no longer looks a FB of international class. Also (perhaps it's only me?) he looks rather disinterested at the moment. But he's probably one of Schmidt's ladyboy favourites so I would expect to see him there for a while yet until his form overtakes his reputation. I am expecting three humpings for Ireland in the AIs - perhaps not too bad a thing if it forces Schmidt to take stock.

[Cap'n Grumpy]

I think Fitzgerald is all style, no substance

Just watch him in games, he is very very busy, but what does he actually achieve?

His line breaks for years have been 0 or very close, his passes, flashy, like Madigans, but often behind or missing the man completely.

His kicking from hand, was lauded by the Irish press for a while, but just watch it, it's misguided, all he goes for is the stylish spiral punt, or the misdirected end over end.
Don't even get me started on his defence.

Players on the wing for Ireland recently:
Bowe - 51 matches, 24 tries, about one try per two matches
McFadden - 19 matches, 7 tries, about one per three
Earls - 39 matches, 12 tries, about 1 per 3
Trimble - 50 matches, 12 tries, about 1 per 4
Zebo - 6matches, 1 try, 1 in 6
Fitzgerald - 26 matches, 2 tries, 1 in 13.
Seems clear enough to me - of all our recent wingers, he is the least effective by a long way.

I think we should try Dan Tuohy on the wing for Ireland - I know it's only Rabo level, but he played one match on the wing for Ulster last week and scored 2 tries - that's better than any of that lot!

[BaggyTrousers]

Yes i would care if he went but not if he chooses to huff. If he cant fight for his place then he should go.

Rotation is part of having a big squad. you can only play 15 players at a time. Either he accepts this and fights for his place or he huffs. as i said if he huffs........goodbye now

Oh dear, I see you are posting without reading the thread me ould mate. There is no rotation happening - none. Unless of course you count the same man being constantly rotated out as squad rotation? I think not.

As for huffing.............. what is the evidence to suggest any such thing?

[Big-al]

That last comment was personal and totally unnecessary, Mike. You should retract it. Now kiss and make up, the two of you - please!

I'm just glad Baggy isn't insulting me for once.

[Neil F]

I think Fitzgerald is all style, no substance

Just watch him in games, he is very very busy, but what does he actually achieve?

His line breaks for years have been 0 or very close, his passes, flashy, like Madigans, but often behind or missing the man completely.

His kicking from hand, was lauded by the Irish press for a while, but just watch it, it's misguided, all he goes for is the stylish spiral punt, or the misdirected end over end.
Don't even get me started on his defence.

Players on the wing for Ireland recently:
Bowe - 51 matches, 24 tries, about one try per two matches
McFadden - 19 matches, 7 tries, about one per three
Earls - 39 matches, 12 tries, about 1 per 3
Trimble - 50 matches, 12 tries, about 1 per 4
Zebo - 6matches, 1 try, 1 in 6
Fitzgerald - 26 matches, 2 tries, 1 in 13.
Seems clear enough to me - of all our recent wingers, he is the least effective by a long way.

This assumes that strike-rate is the only thing a winger does (and that the opposition are always of the same quality - how many of Trimble's international tries came in competitive tests against meaningful opposition, for example? And that all of these caps / performances came whilst playing on the wing...). Of course, on this basis alone, Earls should be partnering Bowe; indeed, this was an excuse much derided by posters on this forum at the World Cup, when Earls' superior strike-rate, especially against top-quality opposition, was used as justification for the against-form dropping of Trimble. We can do better than that.

It's hard to discuss Fitzgerald now; he's had two horrendous injuries and has basically played zero rugby in a couple of years. So for these comments, I think it's better to go back a little further. 2009 or so, when Fitzgerald, let's not forget, secured some Lions test caps. At this time, Fitzgerald was, basically, the best defensive winger I'd seen play for Ireland. Given my (relative) youth and the dodgy defending of most of the other wingers Ireland have produced in my lifetime, this might not be saying much. But he was an incredibly effective defensive winger. And this, really, fitted with Kidney's negative game. It's better to make no mistakes than to create something and better to score no tries and concede than to outscore the opposition five to four...

Whether Fitzgerald's lack of attacking nous stemmed from this or not is a difficult question to answer. I'd suggest not. He isn't an attack-minded winger. A couple of Autumns ago, I think Trimble did more in attack in the opening few minutes against Argentina than Fitzgerald had managed in the rest of the series. There is an impetus moving forward that Ireland lack when Fitzgerald plays. On that basis, I wouldn't select Fitzgerald and I wouldn't have him in any fully-fit Ireland 23. This is not to say I think Fitzgerald is a poor player - far from it - I just don't think he's what Ireland need.

[rocky]

Neil, I agree with what you say and I accept that strike-rate isn't everything. But it is pretty important for a winger. There are few questions asked about Tommy's defence, for example, whereas Earls' defence has been suspect at times. Fitzy's defence is/was good, it's just that his strke rate is so much worse than everyone else that bothers me.

[ruckover]

yeh-may as well comment. to say that Fitzgerald is a dreadful player seems odd-why would you say that? he's a great talent struggling to come back after injury.

I make an innocuous comment saying that Luke is a talented player and that he's coming back from injury and then all of a sudden you go all drama queen again and say that I claimed that he was a great player-yer the miss hissyfit of the uafc.

That's maybe because you did claim he was a great player mike? Do you even read what you write?

[BaggyTrousers]

ffs saggy-yer pathetic posturing and clutching at straws isn't fooling anybody!


I make an innocuous comment saying that Luke is a talented player and that he's coming back from injury and then all of a sudden you go all drama queen again and say that I claimed that he was a great player-yer the miss hissyfit of the uafc.

Not only that, but then you go onto some ludicrous diatribe that you are trying to help me with my understanding of rugby.

and as for the patronising sonny thing? pfft.

capiche?

Oh joy, the muppet that just keeps giving.

mike, lets face facts, you know as much as SFA, your opinions are effectively worthless, though of course you are absolutely entitled to be as stupid as you choose to be here, safe in the knowledge that you are not the only know-nothing Brennan in the vicinity.

Frankly you are little more than an irritation. I shall of course continue to point out the error of your ways in the same way I as point out where any similar chube, fortunately a scare commodity here, is wrong.

I've been helping chubes here for quite some time, whether or not they wish my help, I feel it's my responsibility. So you can rebel like an infant or read & learn, frankly I don't care.

You've been helped.

[BaggyTrousers]

That last comment was personal and totally unnecessary, Mike. You should retract it. Now kiss and make up, the two of you - please!

I'm just glad Baggy isn't insulting me for once.

Ach Big-al, all I ever ask is that you keep your "odder" posts to a strict minimum

I have to confess Al, you are a prince amongst men in comparison to wee mike.

[BaggyTrousers]

I think Fitzgerald is all style, no substance

Just watch him in games, he is very very busy, but what does he actually achieve?

His line breaks for years have been 0 or very close, his passes, flashy, like Madigans, but often behind or missing the man completely.

His kicking from hand, was lauded by the Irish press for a while, but just watch it, it's misguided, all he goes for is the stylish spiral punt, or the misdirected end over end.
Don't even get me started on his defence.

Players on the wing for Ireland recently:
Bowe - 51 matches, 24 tries, about one try per two matches
McFadden - 19 matches, 7 tries, about one per three
Earls - 39 matches, 12 tries, about 1 per 3
Trimble - 50 matches, 12 tries, about 1 per 4
Zebo - 6matches, 1 try, 1 in 6
Fitzgerald - 26 matches, 2 tries, 1 in 13.
Seems clear enough to me - of all our recent wingers, he is the least effective by a long way.

This assumes that strike-rate is the only thing a winger does (and that the opposition are always of the same quality - how many of Trimble's international tries came in competitive tests against meaningful opposition, for example? And that all of these caps / performances came whilst playing on the wing...). Of course, on this basis alone, Earls should be partnering Bowe; indeed, this was an excuse much derided by posters on this forum at the World Cup, when Earls' superior strike-rate, especially against top-quality opposition, was used as justification for the against-form dropping of Trimble. We can do better than that.
L
It's hard to discuss Fitzgerald now; he's had two horrendous injuries and has basically played zero rugby in a couple of years. So for these comments, I think it's better to go back a little further. 2009 or so, when Fitzgerald, let's not forget, secured some Lions test caps. At this time, Fitzgerald was, basically, the best defensive winger I'd seen play for Ireland. Given my (relative) youth and the dodgy defending of most of the other wingers Ireland have produced in my lifetime, this might not be saying much. But he was an incredibly effective defensive winger. And t
his, really, fitted with Kidney's negative game. It's better to make no mistakes than to create something and better to score no tries and concede than to outscore the opposition five to four...

Whether Fitzgerald's lack of attacking nous stemmed from this or not is a difficult question to answer. I'd suggest not. He isn't an attack-minded winger. A couple of Autumns ago, I think Trimble did more in attack in the opening few minutes against Argentina than Fitzgerald had managed in the rest of the series. There is an impetus moving forward that Ireland lack when Fitzgerald plays. On that basis, I wouldn't select Fitzgerald and I wouldn't have him in any fully-fit Ireland 23. This is not to say I think Fitzgerald is a poor player - far from it - I just don't think he's what Ireland need.

Neil, of course strike rate isn't everything but it is most certainly relevant, even more relevant is that since his 2 international tries came in the same 9-38 romp against Italy as long ago as February 2009, he has played 25 times drawing a blank, that rivals Scotland's Roger Baird who, like Fitzgerald, was an odd B.Lion selection.

The ineffectual Mr Fitzgerald has subsequently started or been sub in 14 games without taxing either the scorer, or in my recall, the opposition.

What I will say with conviction is that strike rate coupled with a huge propensity for errors and clear evidence of his limbs ignoring his brain mean he is about as useful to Ireland as an arseful of boiled snow.

I hold these truths to be self-evident ...................... then I have to take into account that mike thinks he is a great player. Then of course I know that I am right.

Luke Fitzgerald has never & will never be fit to pull on a green jumper. Indeed,even on a casual basis, I'd say green just isn't his colour.

In conclusion I would say the fact that he has amassed 26 caps is a triumph of random kinetic energy over sane evaluation of talent.

[Neil F]

Baggy; largely, I agree with you. As I said above, I wouldn't have Fitzgerald near an Ireland squad, let alone a match-day 23, at present.

That said, I do not believe his performances in 2009 (pre-Lions and on the Lions tour) match to the description you give. In 2009, Fitzgerald fitted a mould of many young Irish player. He was 21, looked full of potential and, whilst he made mistakes, he certainly wasn't alone in that regard, either amongst the more experienced players he played with, or amongst emerging Irish talent. Since then, we've basically seen nothing of Fitzgerald - he was injured in November 2009 and has had terrible fortunes with injuries since then. He missed, basically, the entire 2009/2010 seasons; most of last season... I don't think it's for either of us to say how much of the player we see now is to do with the injuries he's suffered and how much is to do with his own limitations. I'd suggest some significant overlap of the two - so much time spent trying to regain fitness that opportunities to work on his limitations have been scant.

In that sense, I wouldn't write him off, just yet. He's only 26 and he's spent a long time on the physio's bench. He might surprise some - we're not dealing with a Keith Earls type who has played nearly every minute of rugby in recent seasons and still shows the same old limitations. If Fitzgerald can keep fit, he might be an option in the future, assuming he is fit enough to work on his limitations.

2009 was an odd Lions tour, in a way, though - Ugo Moyne also started a test, if memory serves me correctly. And I'm not sure it does because the thought of Moyne playing in a Lions test is well worth repressing...