Ulster Rugby and Where We Are

Talk about the men in white, and everything Ulster!!

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scrum5
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Ulster Rugby and Where We Are

Post by scrum5 »

Back from Scotstoun and have a few observations on the game and Ulster Rugby in general....on the game last night, we can blame the ineptness of the officials or the play acting of Matawalu but the simple truth is that the Ulster coaching team bar Dinger Bell is not good enough. The players whilst good are not mentally tough enough to win when it matters, they keep talking about learning from the previous big game defeat but sadly nothing changes. On last night's game Ulster fresh from resting most of the team the week before, looked good the first half but like most of the season failed to put in an 80 minute performance. 2 poor kicks trying to relieve pressure went out on the full and Glasgow never looked back and by the end of the game it looked as though Glasgow were the team who had had the week off. We tried crashing through the centres with little to no effect and that's fine but if you are going to play that style then play McCloskey and bring back Chris Farrell from Grenoble, both 16/17 stone centres who will crash the ball up and actually break the game line. Darren and jared are both fine players but this style in my opinion does not suit their skill set. On the subject of Stuart McCloskey, why did it take till the 77th minute to see him take to the pitch. I would say that as is the Ulster way we were 20-25 minutes too late in bringing on our subs, Andy Warwick (72mins.), Robbie Diack (77mins.) and Rob Herring not used at all. Neil Doak needs to realise that rugby is now a 23 man game, playing the same players only causes fatigue which results in poor decision making and injuries. We tried this 15 man rugby under McGlocks and it didn't result in silverware now 5 years later on we are still trying it and guess what, we still have no silverware. It must be disheartening for the lads who take the bench knowing that the management don't deem them good enough to play unless there is an injury to a frontline player. Players like Ian Whitten, Chris Farrell, Tommy Seymour, Ali Birch, Gareth Steenson and Niall Annett who UR didn't integrate into the team, have gone elsewhere and proved integral to their new sides, it is absolutely pathetic. As to Ulster's season it has been poor no matter how you try and dress it up, the worst European campaign in 5 years, 2 wins and 4 defeats, one being an absolute pasting and I believe our worst ever defeat in Europe, yet the coach tells us that he was proud and we scored 4 tries, big deal, Toulon scored 8. In the league the only teams that we beat away from Kingspan was Treviso, Edinburgh, Cardiff and Connacht and loosing to both Zebre and Dragons another absolute disgrace. Of the other teams in the top 6 we lost 5 games and drew with Scarlets. In total out of 15 away fixtures we lost 10 yes 10, drew 1 and won 4, we were lucky in my opinion to make the play offs. Next year I fear we will not be any better off, 10 to 12 players will be leaving during the close season and we have recruited only 4 and while I'm glad to see the return of Mad Willie and the 3 other lads Peter Browne, Paul Rowley and Sam Windsor, I don't believe they will turn us from distinctly average to serious challengers both in Europe and domestically (I hope I am proved wrong). Les Kiss can't come soon enough but sadly by the time he arrives in late December early January our season will be over. As for Shane Logan's famous world domination speech it's becoming more and more ludicrous every passing season.....Everything may well be fine off the pitch commercially (though I doubt that as well) but on the pitch it is NOT GOOD ENOUGH and no amount of flannel will paper over the chasms.
In memory of Nevin Spence 1990- 15th Sept. 2012
Axel..... 30 October 1973 - 16 October 2016
Pedrie Wannenburg. 2 January 1981 - 22 April 2022.
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BaggyTrousers
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Re: Ulster Rugby and Where We Are

Post by BaggyTrousers »

Scrum, no offence intended but with my brain scrambled & head sore, I can't read that now. Either I'll come back later & try or you could edit it to make a few paragraphs. >EW
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Re: Ulster Rugby and Where We Are

Post by Nightsoil »

Really don't get why people keep going on about signings when squad improvements should be coming from the academy and player development. Ulster Rugby can't recruit their way to success. They just can't. Think about it. 5 NIQs and all the IQ players other nations didn't want isn't going to equal success. If more players go out than come in, that means academy players will be promoted. Scrum5, I don't see how you can complain about them not integrating certain youth players in one breath, and then the management making space for academy players to step up the next.

Anyway, here's hoping Less Kiss is the coach to finally bring them through and that the conveyor belt might start working again.
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Re: Ulster Rugby and Where We Are

Post by bazzaj »

BaggyTrousers wrote:Scrum, no offence intended but with my brain scrambled & head sore, I can't read that now. Either I'll come back later & try or you could edit it to make a few paragraphs. >EW
Quite agree scrummers.
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scrum5
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Re: Ulster Rugby and Where We Are

Post by scrum5 »

Nightsoil wrote:Really don't get why people keep going on about signings when squad improvements should be coming from the academy and player development. Ulster Rugby can't recruit their way to success. They just can't. Think about it. 5 NIQs and all the IQ players other nations didn't want isn't going to equal success. If more players go out than come in, that means academy players will be promoted. Scrum5, I don't see how you can complain about them not integrating certain youth players in one breath, and then the management making space for academy players to step up the next.

Anyway, here's hoping Less Kiss is the coach to finally bring them through and that the conveyor belt might start working again.
Nightsoil my gripe is that players UR deemed not good enough have went else where and, surprise surprise proved they are good enough, also on promoting academy lads which will be the way forward from next season as there will be no more signings, that was always the way it should have been instead of flying Boyes, Raaymaker and Stanley half way around the world at considerable cost to not even play a full game between them.
In memory of Nevin Spence 1990- 15th Sept. 2012
Axel..... 30 October 1973 - 16 October 2016
Pedrie Wannenburg. 2 January 1981 - 22 April 2022.
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thecrouch
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Re: Ulster Rugby and Where We Are

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Nightsoil wrote:Really don't get why people keep going on about signings when squad improvements should be coming from the academy and player development. Ulster Rugby can't recruit their way to success. They just can't. Think about it. 5 NIQs and all the IQ players other nations didn't want isn't going to equal success. If more players go out than come in, that means academy players will be promoted. Scrum5, I don't see how you can complain about them not integrating certain youth players in one breath, and then the management making space for academy players to step up the next.

Anyway, here's hoping Less Kiss is the coach to finally bring them through and that the conveyor belt might start working again.
We cannot field a strong 23 just using players from the academy.

We need signings to supplement our own talent.

1. We need better academy players, especially in the forwards. I can't think of anyone decent we've produced recently other than Henderson.

2. We need better signings to improve our own talent. These guys learn by playing alongside better players.

IMO our squad can be broken down like this:

1. Top Class and will play if fit
Best, Herbst, Tuohy, Van der Merwe, Henderson, Henry, Pienaar, PJ, Cave, Payne, Trimble, Olding and Bowe

2. Good enough
Gilroy, Marshall (Luke), McCloskey, Ludik, O'Connor, Warwick, Diack, Wilson, Nelson, Black, Herring, Scholes

3. Squad fillers
Humphreys, Marshall (the wee one), Lutton,

4. Dross
Butterworth, Reidy, Murphy, Ryan, McComb, McComish, Williams, Ross, Heaney, Shanahan and Ross.

Too many players in pot 3 and 4 there. Especially forwards and half backs.
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Re: Ulster Rugby and Where We Are

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Agree with all you say Scrum, all those short term signings this year were actually worse than a complete waste of money because they took game time, even such precious little as they got, away from players that could form part of our future.
As for subs again bang on, look at Schmidt and the likes of Moore, McGrath, Cronin etc. all get game time from the bench, and not just 5 minutes at the end of the game. Townsend did the same on Friday, although some of it may have been to do with injury a good bit of it giving people game time.
Have recently read O'Gara's autobiography and he half complained about Penney always giving equal training time to the subs, and he half understood it. In order to retain promising players you need to give them game time, and not just 5 minutes. We need the likes of Scholes, Joyce, Herring, Warwick or whoever as full parts of the squad getting adequate game time.
Finally agree once again on playing style, if you want someone to truck up in the centres and break the gain line we have nobody better than McCloskey, to be honest I would have moved him to No 8 or 6 by now but that's a different story.
Hopefully when Kiss comes in he will have the same perspective as Schmidt and give the whole playing squad adequate game time both to improve all the players, keep them happy and it should lead to improved results.
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kingofthehill
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Re: Ulster Rugby and Where We Are

Post by kingofthehill »

Bar Dinger :lol:
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Re: Ulster Rugby and Where We Are

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kingofthehill wrote:Bar Dinger :lol:
Who would you rate the best out of current coaches KOTH?
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Re: Ulster Rugby and Where We Are

Post by bazzaj »

Lot of sense on here.
To develop a squad you need to play squad players and know when to play them.

Home games to the Italian sides or the Dragons or Embra are the sort of opportunities for the fringe or academy players to get game time Iin matches we are unlikely to lose.
It also can give our front liners a rest from the demands of the pro game.
Think before the Toulon game, some of our lads had played 5 weeks in a row so no wonder we seemed flat in that game.
It was a point I made before that match .

We get try bonus point obsession and go all out for these games.against weak opponents at home when we consistently fail to see the bigger picture.
We use these players as break glass options and they feel under valued, untrusted and not a real part of the set up .
Any wonder they do better when they leave.
I am therefore not entirely convinced that we don't have the players, we just don't know how to manage and rotate the squad properly
Last edited by bazzaj on Sat May 23, 2015 8:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Nightsoil
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Re: Ulster Rugby and Where We Are

Post by Nightsoil »

thecrouch wrote: We cannot field a strong 23 just using players from the academy.

We need signings to supplement our own talent.

1. We need better academy players, especially in the forwards. I can't think of anyone decent we've produced recently other than Henderson.

2. We need better signings to improve our own talent. These guys learn by playing alongside better players.
You're right and I didn't mean to suggest that signings weren't important - but people talk about needing new players next season, being worried they don't see the right guys among the signings/not enough of them and no talk about the academy, that's what I'm objecting to. I'm expressing this very poorly but there seems to be an attitude that we're looking for Cunningham to produce rabbits out of a hat to take us forwards when the bulk of the work will be done by the academy. I think that's wrong.

At the very least, the lack of academy forwards breaking through needs to be highlighted as an issue as well. If we're talking about why Ulster Rugby is in the position its in, then the failure to get a conveyor belt going, particularly in the forwards, is a hugely important issue.

I fully agree though that top quality NIQ talent and unappreciated IQ talent from elsewhere will play a big part in any trophies we may win though. Come end of next season I'm hoping to see some big talents unveiled with the massive warchest Ulster's supposed to have. Just I think the academy's more important.
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Re: Ulster Rugby and Where We Are

Post by scrum5 »

Come end of next season I'm hoping to see some big talents unveiled with the massive warchest Ulster's supposed to have. Just I think the academy's more important.
















I'M lead to believe that the war chest is more the size off a


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In memory of Nevin Spence 1990- 15th Sept. 2012
Axel..... 30 October 1973 - 16 October 2016
Pedrie Wannenburg. 2 January 1981 - 22 April 2022.
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thecrouch
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Re: Ulster Rugby and Where We Are

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scrum5 wrote: I'M lead to believe that the war chest is more the size off a


imagesAGZ80WD3.jpg
If that's the case where is all our money going?
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kingofthehill
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Re: Ulster Rugby and Where We Are

Post by kingofthehill »

Lurgan Lad wrote:
kingofthehill wrote:Bar Dinger :lol:
Who would you rate the best out of current coaches KOTH?
I think our first phase attack is one of the best around.

Set piece by the stats is best in Rabo.

Doak deserves a chance and I feel he's the man to take us forward with Kiss.
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Re: Ulster Rugby and Where We Are

Post by Kofi Annan »

Why do people have the view Kiss is not involved in what is going on and when he "arrives" all will be fluffy cats and stardust.
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