2015-2016 what's to be done?

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Snipe Watson
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Re: 2015-2016 what's to be done?

Post by Snipe Watson »

Cap'n Grumpy wrote:
Snipe Watson wrote:
I presume you're not suggesting censorship of this thread? :stir:
Yes. Why? It's my thread... >threaten .... :lol:
BuckRogers
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Re: 2015-2016 what's to be done?

Post by BuckRogers »

Snipe Watson wrote:Kofi, I know is a club man. Buck I assume is a club man too and therefore have a greater feel for and dare I say love of the club game. I'm not that interested in the club game any more for a combination of reasons on the other hand I am seriously interested in the pro game and schools game. Does that make me any less of a rugby fan? We all bang the drum for the section of the game we are involved in. I would like to see even more investment in schools. I would like to see clubs having better relationships with schools. I would like to see UR putting more investment into non traditional rugby schools.

Having said all of that, this thread is all about the professional team next season.
I wouldn't say I necessarily have a greater love of the game of rugby than a casual supporter who simply turns up for a few hours to ravers on a Friday night. Their money is no more or less valuable than mine. Their contribution to UR ergo is no more or less valuable than mine.

Regarding this thread, the professional game is inextricably linked to the club game on many different levels. At a very basic level (macro level you could argue) the more kids we have playing minis in 2015 the bigger pool of players McLaughs (or whoever replaces him) will have to pick and identify talent from in 2025 or thereabouts.

On a level more directly related to the pro team we have one team in AIL 1A and 2 in 1B. That's three teams in the top 16 of AIL rugby.

The team in 1A (Ballynahinch) have largely got there through their own hard work and probably a bit of good luck. Ballymena have also pulled themselves back from the brink admirably too. They were seriously on the slide under Benade and John Andrews. Harlequins are probably lucky they had Malone (coached by Benade) in the same league this season.

Three senior clubs in the top two divisions of the AIL is not good enough. At the very least you risk turning the clubs that are there into little else but the Not Quite Good Enough for Ulster XV rather than actual clubs.

That's the problems there. That is without looking at the problems in other senior and junior clubs that WILL have an impact on the professional side of things in the medium to long term...

Anyways as I said in my opening two gambits, they key to future success of the pro team in the immediate term.
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Snipe Watson
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Re: 2015-2016 what's to be done?

Post by Snipe Watson »

BuckRogers wrote:
Snipe Watson wrote:Kofi, I know is a club man. Buck I assume is a club man too and therefore have a greater feel for and dare I say love of the club game. I'm not that interested in the club game any more for a combination of reasons on the other hand I am seriously interested in the pro game and schools game. Does that make me any less of a rugby fan? We all bang the drum for the section of the game we are involved in. I would like to see even more investment in schools. I would like to see clubs having better relationships with schools. I would like to see UR putting more investment into non traditional rugby schools.

Having said all of that, this thread is all about the professional team next season.
I wouldn't say I necessarily have a greater love of the game of rugby than a casual supporter who simply turns up for a few hours to ravers on a Friday night. Their money is no more or less valuable than mine. Their contribution to UR ergo is no more or less valuable than mine.

Regarding this thread, the professional game is inextricably linked to the club game on many different levels. At a very basic level (macro level you could argue) the more kids we have playing minis in 2015 the bigger pool of players McLaughs (or whoever replaces him) will have to pick and identify talent from in 2025 or thereabouts.

On a level more directly related to the pro team we have one team in AIL 1A and 2 in 1B. That's three teams in the top 16 of AIL rugby.

The team in 1A (Ballynahinch) have largely got there through their own hard work and probably a bit of good luck. Ballymena have also pulled themselves back from the brink admirably too. They were seriously on the slide under Benade and John Andrews. Harlequins are probably lucky they had Malone (coached by Benade) in the same league this season.

Three senior clubs in the top two divisions of the AIL is not good enough. At the very least you risk turning the clubs that are there into little else but the Not Quite Good Enough for Ulster XV rather than actual clubs.

That's the problems there. That is without looking at the problems in other senior and junior clubs that WILL have an impact on the professional side of things in the medium to long term...

Anyways as I said in my opening two gambits, they key to future success of the pro team in the immediate term.
I didn't suggest you have a greater love of rugby. I suggested you may have a greater love of the club game.

As I said, I have no club interest above mini level. I would question why the club game in Ulster is at such a low ebb? How much of this is of their own creation? Are the clubs just not producing a product that customers want to buy? Is the club game sustainable in its current state? How do clubs view their their mini sections? All rhetorical questions by the way.
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Joe Schmo
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Re: 2015-2016 what's to be done?

Post by Joe Schmo »

Never mind winning stuff, I say blow up the band.
Cockatrice
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Re: 2015-2016 what's to be done?

Post by Cockatrice »

Snipe Watson wrote:
BuckRogers wrote:
Snipe Watson wrote:Kofi, I know is a club man. Buck I assume is a club man too and therefore have a greater feel for and dare I say love of the club game. I'm not that interested in the club game any more for a combination of reasons on the other hand I am seriously interested in the pro game and schools game. Does that make me any less of a rugby fan? We all bang the drum for the section of the game we are involved in. I would like to see even more investment in schools. I would like to see clubs having better relationships with schools. I would like to see UR putting more investment into non traditional rugby schools.

Having said all of that, this thread is all about the professional team next season.
I wouldn't say I necessarily have a greater love of the game of rugby than a casual supporter who simply turns up for a few hours to ravers on a Friday night. Their money is no more or less valuable than mine. Their contribution to UR ergo is no more or less valuable than mine.

Regarding this thread, the professional game is inextricably linked to the club game on many different levels. At a very basic level (macro level you could argue) the more kids we have playing minis in 2015 the bigger pool of players McLaughs (or whoever replaces him) will have to pick and identify talent from in 2025 or thereabouts.

On a level more directly related to the pro team we have one team in AIL 1A and 2 in 1B. That's three teams in the top 16 of AIL rugby.

The team in 1A (Ballynahinch) have largely got there through their own hard work and probably a bit of good luck. Ballymena have also pulled themselves back from the brink admirably too. They were seriously on the slide under Benade and John Andrews. Harlequins are probably lucky they had Malone (coached by Benade) in the same league this season.

Three senior clubs in the top two divisions of the AIL is not good enough. At the very least you risk turning the clubs that are there into little else but the Not Quite Good Enough for Ulster XV rather than actual clubs.

That's the problems there. That is without looking at the problems in other senior and junior clubs that WILL have an impact on the professional side of things in the medium to long term...

Anyways as I said in my opening two gambits, they key to future success of the pro team in the immediate term.
I didn't suggest you have a greater love of rugby. I suggested you may have a greater love of the club game.

As I said, I have no club interest above mini level. I would question why the club game in Ulster is at such a low ebb? How much of this is of their own creation? Are the clubs just not producing a product that customers want to buy? Is the club game sustainable in its current state? How do clubs view their their mini sections? All rhetorical questions by the way.
Snipe.... Despite the fact that we are being told that there are more games and more players than ever I don't see the evidence to support this but is it solely the clubs that are failing in their efforts to attract school players after they leave school or are other factors impacting on what I see at least is less players continuing with rugby than ever.
Last edited by Cockatrice on Sun May 31, 2015 10:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Kofi Annan
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Re: 2015-2016 what's to be done?

Post by Kofi Annan »

Snipe, a lot of clubs don't have the right people in positions to run or develop a club and rely on people welded to their seat of power. mini rugby is vital to clubs but my problem with mini rugby is that they tend to run as av club within a club, sometimes even a baby sitting service , very few mummy's and daddy's whose children play mini, get involved in the club or even go and support the club, either by attending a game , helping as a volunteers or attending any of the club functions, clubs should be doing more to involve the mini membership, get a club/community mentality like you get at a lot of GAA clubs

How many of your mini section sold or bought ballots , for say my club , my country, . Not picking on anyone, but I know of one club with a mini section of hundreds never sold one ticket, not just them , only one playing adult member sold a ballot

Final observation the parents always look well in their club gear :lol:

What's the point of a mini section if you have no youth teams?
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Re: 2015-2016 what's to be done?

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Kofi Annan wrote:Snipe, a lot of clubs don't have the right people in positions to run or develop a club and rely on people welded to their seat of power. mini rugby is vital to clubs but my problem with mini rugby is that they tend to run as av club within a club, sometimes even a baby sitting service , very few mummy's and daddy's whose children play mini, get involved in the club or even go and support the club, either by attending a game , helping as a volunteers or attending any of the club functions, clubs should be doing more to involve the mini membership, get a club/community mentality like you get at a lot of GAA clubs

How many of your mini section sold or bought ballots , for say my club , my country, . Not picking on anyone, but I know of one club with a mini section of hundreds never sold one ticket, not just them , only one playing adult member sold a ballot

Final observation the parents always look well in their club gear :lol:

What's the point of a mini section if you have no youth teams?
I'd agree with all of that Kofi.
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Kofi Annan
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Re: 2015-2016 what's to be done?

Post by Kofi Annan »

Snipe Watson wrote:
Kofi Annan wrote:Snipe, a lot of clubs don't have the right people in positions to run or develop a club and rely on people welded to their seat of power. mini rugby is vital to clubs but my problem with mini rugby is that they tend to run as av club within a club, sometimes even a baby sitting service , very few mummy's and daddy's whose children play mini, get involved in the club or even go and support the club, either by attending a game , helping as a volunteers or attending any of the club functions, clubs should be doing more to involve the mini membership, get a club/community mentality like you get at a lot of GAA clubs

How many of your mini section sold or bought ballots , for say my club , my country, . Not picking on anyone, but I know of one club with a mini section of hundreds never sold one ticket, not just them , only one playing adult member sold a ballot

Final observation the parents always look well in their club gear :lol:

What's the point of a mini section if you have no youth teams?
I'd agree with all of that Kofi.
That's three times you have agreed with me this week, stop it now :lol:
“For the liespotter who knows how to listen well, the random words, sounds, and phrases in a person's speech are never as random as they seem. They offer a clear sightline into the liar's psyche.”
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Snipe Watson
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Re: 2015-2016 what's to be done?

Post by Snipe Watson »

Kofi Annan wrote:
Snipe Watson wrote:
Kofi Annan wrote:Snipe, a lot of clubs don't have the right people in positions to run or develop a club and rely on people welded to their seat of power. mini rugby is vital to clubs but my problem with mini rugby is that they tend to run as av club within a club, sometimes even a baby sitting service , very few mummy's and daddy's whose children play mini, get involved in the club or even go and support the club, either by attending a game , helping as a volunteers or attending any of the club functions, clubs should be doing more to involve the mini membership, get a club/community mentality like you get at a lot of GAA clubs

How many of your mini section sold or bought ballots , for say my club , my country, . Not picking on anyone, but I know of one club with a mini section of hundreds never sold one ticket, not just them , only one playing adult member sold a ballot

Final observation the parents always look well in their club gear :lol:

What's the point of a mini section if you have no youth teams?
I'd agree with all of that Kofi.
That's three times you have agreed with me this week, stop it now :lol:
Don't worry, it'll hardly last. :thumleft: normal service will soon resume no doubt.
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moyletra
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Re: 2015-2016 what's to be done?

Post by moyletra »

Kofi a lot of clubs have volunteers working their butts off to develop and maintain grass roots rugby for adults, youth, minis, ladies and special needs.

The reality of the grassroots game is that it is dying. The professional game is based on elite Belfast schools feeding the Academies and senior teams.

There is no recognition that the entry level mini experience is organised and funded by the grassroots clubs. Clubs die and there is no mini rugby.
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Re: 2015-2016 what's to be done?

Post by Kofi Annan »

moyletra wrote:Kofi a lot of clubs have volunteers working their butts off to develop and maintain grass roots rugby for adults, youth, minis, ladies and special needs.

The reality of the grassroots game is that it is dying. The professional game is based on elite Belfast schools feeding the Academies and senior teams.

There is no recognition that the entry level mini experience is organised and funded by the grassroots clubs. Clubs die and there is no mini rugby.
:scratch: I totally agree with most, however some clubs need to revamp and review how the club will go forward, times have changed and a lot of clubs are looking back not forwards, I applaud those who work to support their clubs , but some need a boot up the hôle
The professional game is based on elite Belfast schools feeding the Academies and senior teams.
That sounds more like a gripe, than a factual statement.what elite school was McCloskey in, or Ross Adair, or Ricky Andrews or Andrew Warwick. John Andrews, john Doonan, David Busby :scratch: ffs get a grip
Last edited by Kofi Annan on Sun May 31, 2015 11:40 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: 2015-2016 what's to be done?

Post by moyletra »

The elite rugby schools with larger male pupil populations are in Belfast not a gripe that's a fact. Recognition comes from Schools Cup performance. The lower tier grammar schools and rugby participating secondary schools don't get a look in. I'll not mention the club youth players.

I didn't insinuate any nepotism.
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Re: 2015-2016 what's to be done?

Post by Snipe Watson »

moyletra wrote:The elite rugby schools with larger male pupil populations are in Belfast not a gripe that's a fact. Recognition comes from Schools Cup performance. The lower tier grammar schools and rugby participating secondary schools don't get a look in. I'll not mention the club youth players.

I didn't insinuate any nepotism.
I don't think that is the case any more. Brian McLaughlin is doing sterling work in schools outside Belfast. The big schools have the numbers and probably get more attention accordingly, but Brian has been on the road doing his thing.
bazzaj

Re: 2015-2016 what's to be done?

Post by bazzaj »

BaggyTrousers wrote:Well................... the thing is you see....................you could take a view that with very little different we could well have won the league, for the reality is that we scalded Weegies at Spanners & had to try really hard, but managed it, to lose at Scotstoun V2.

If you tot up the weeks missed through suspensions you would need to be a mug not to see where the first priority should be - discipline, we use to give that big mug Caldwell a hard time, now it's a feckin' epidemic of stupidity.

If we had something between the ears as a team we would do much better, we are not Toulon, but then they don't play in our league. Fits in with discipline to an extent.

Leadership needed and I don't mean a captain, I mean all the senior players need to take some control on the pitch, not just Rory, Franco, Chad and Darren. I found it interesting that when captain's were discussed, not one mention was made of our best player. I suspect he is so frazzled by 5 years solid rugby broken only by periods of rehab, it is no surprise that he is appearing somewhat less than controlling & sharp of late and when he raised himself in Glasgow it didn't last into the second half.

Next is the off-field stupidity, we continually play our strongest or near strongest team at home & we send lesser selections to games we think we are strong enough to win away :duh: The clear evidence of the idiocy of this is in our away record this season. It is n outrage that it continues.

Rotation, I keep coming back to Big Licence, but I am dumbfounded by how little he was used this season. Black is good but by Christ he is not so massively better than BL to the extent that BL gets little to no game time. Similarly there are players who would kill for as much game time as Big Licence, for you see them dropped in to sink or swim. Like a broken record I see no reason why every home selection should not bring at the very least a couple of guys with the bulk of the best team & of course the "rested players" on the bench in case of need. That is not radical, it's sensible.

Third Quarter Syndrome, another of my regulars, why do plyers come back in state of torpor after halftime?

Talk of the players we need is an utter waste of breath, we have what we have & no scope to do anything but possibly tinker at the edges if we find someone IQ.

The off-field nonsense from Fit & his minions may boil folk's pish but unless someone wants to speak directly to him or a deputation from URSC for example, we are not going to see the back of the dress code, the bullshit & the 7 commandments. Frankly I let it wash over me with an entire absence of fu@ks given.

Les Kiss, wait and see, no guarantees, he's not the messiah, he's a very good defense coach. If he is more than that, great.

In summary there are things that can be done & there are the other bits & pieces on the wish list:

The "To dos":

1) Discipline
2) Rugby intelligence, I'm no coach but I fail to believe that even with the stupidest of players improvement can be coached & progress identified, players sanctioned for stupid acts.
3) Selection, stop the nonsense of product for the home crowd & taking chances on chubes away.
4) Sensible rotation particularly when the squad is not depleted by injury, with strong bench.
5) Leadership from senior players, not just the skipper, he should be freer to manage refs.
6) Third Quarter Syndrome, has to be sorted by the coaches, have they not noticed?

The Wish List

Everything else. It' largely unimportant, the "to dos" are what matters, everything else in it's own time, Fit & the Whoppers, dumb videos which quite obviously are aimed at clowns, 7 Commandments. These things don't impact on the pitch, certainly not significantly.
Outstanding post Baggy expanding on the one previous from NS.
The main thrust seems to be that it is all of our own doing and within our hands.
No massive overhaul or wholesale changes required just a bit of common dog and a change in attitude.

Spot on that we outplayed Glasgow in two games but the discipline has killed us as we all know.
Interesting as my Uncle pointed out the first thing Clive Woodward said he addressed in every club he went to was the discipline.
He estimated good discipline was worth on average nine points a game.
There weren`t too many games this season we lost by more than a nine point margin.

A player infringes all we got back from the management tended to be about the injustice of it all and how hard done by we were, instead we should have been looking long and hard in the mirror.
This is unacceptable and we aren`t going to tolerate this kind of stuff is what we should have heard.

Nick Williams should have been made an example of but was allowed to remain as part of the side and set the tone with some of the penalties and cards he racked up.
You get the impression Woodward would have had him training with the Ravens
bazzaj

Re: 2015-2016 what's to be done?

Post by bazzaj »

bazzaj wrote:
BaggyTrousers wrote:Well................... the thing is you see....................you could take a view that with very little different we could well have won the league, for the reality is that we scalded Weegies at Spanners & had to try really hard, but managed it, to lose at Scotstoun V2.

If you tot up the weeks missed through suspensions you would need to be a mug not to see where the first priority should be - discipline, we use to give that big mug Caldwell a hard time, now it's a feckin' epidemic of stupidity.

If we had something between the ears as a team we would do much better, we are not Toulon, but then they don't play in our league. Fits in with discipline to an extent.

Leadership needed and I don't mean a captain, I mean all the senior players need to take some control on the pitch, not just Rory, Franco, Chad and Darren. I found it interesting that when captain's were discussed, not one mention was made of our best player. I suspect he is so frazzled by 5 years solid rugby broken only by periods of rehab, it is no surprise that he is appearing somewhat less than controlling & sharp of late and when he raised himself in Glasgow it didn't last into the second half.

Next is the off-field stupidity, we continually play our strongest or near strongest team at home & we send lesser selections to games we think we are strong enough to win away :duh: The clear evidence of the idiocy of this is in our away record this season. It is n outrage that it continues.

Rotation, I keep coming back to Big Licence, but I am dumbfounded by how little he was used this season. Black is good but by Christ he is not so massively better than BL to the extent that BL gets little to no game time. Similarly there are players who would kill for as much game time as Big Licence, for you see them dropped in to sink or swim. Like a broken record I see no reason why every home selection should not bring at the very least a couple of guys with the bulk of the best team & of course the "rested players" on the bench in case of need. That is not radical, it's sensible.

Third Quarter Syndrome, another of my regulars, why do plyers come back in state of torpor after halftime?

Talk of the players we need is an utter waste of breath, we have what we have & no scope to do anything but possibly tinker at the edges if we find someone IQ.

The off-field nonsense from Fit & his minions may boil folk's pish but unless someone wants to speak directly to him or a deputation from URSC for example, we are not going to see the back of the dress code, the bullshit & the 7 commandments. Frankly I let it wash over me with an entire absence of fu@ks given.

Les Kiss, wait and see, no guarantees, he's not the messiah, he's a very good defense coach. If he is more than that, great.

In summary there are things that can be done & there are the other bits & pieces on the wish list:

The "To dos":

1) Discipline
2) Rugby intelligence, I'm no coach but I fail to believe that even with the stupidest of players improvement can be coached & progress identified, players sanctioned for stupid acts.
3) Selection, stop the nonsense of product for the home crowd & taking chances on chubes away.
4) Sensible rotation particularly when the squad is not depleted by injury, with strong bench.
5) Leadership from senior players, not just the skipper, he should be freer to manage refs.
6) Third Quarter Syndrome, has to be sorted by the coaches, have they not noticed?

The Wish List

Everything else. It' largely unimportant, the "to dos" are what matters, everything else in it's own time, Fit & the Whoppers, dumb videos which quite obviously are aimed at clowns, 7 Commandments. These things don't impact on the pitch, certainly not significantly.
Outstanding post Baggy expanding on the one previous from NS.
The main thrust seems to be that it is all of our own doing and within our hands.
No massive overhaul or wholesale changes required just a bit of common dog and a change in attitude.

Spot on that we outplayed Glasgow in two games but the discipline has killed us as we all know.
Interesting as my Uncle pointed out the first thing Clive Woodward said he addressed in every club he went to was the discipline.
He estimated good discipline was worth on average nine points a game.
There weren`t too many games this season we lost by more than a nine point margin.

A player infringes all we got back from the management tended to be about the injustice of it all and how hard done by we were, instead we should have been looking long and hard in the mirror.
This is unacceptable and we aren`t going to tolerate this kind of stuff is what we should have heard.
There is a time to back your squad and players but also there`s a time to send out a message and management clearly have failed to appreciate that.

Nick Williams should have been made an example of but was allowed to remain as part of the side and set the tone with some of the penalties and cards he racked up.
You get the impression Woodward would have had him training with the Ravens
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