The state of our set piece

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UlsterNo9
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The state of our set piece

Post by UlsterNo9 » Sun Oct 28, 2018 6:03 pm

I don't have the stats against Connacht and Leinster but I do know we were left bloody nosed at set piece time.

Having watched Fridays game again on Premier Sports the commentary team stated we conceded twenty seven points as a direct result of being destroyed at set piece versus Racing 92.

A further ten points against Dragons.....

On Friday night Dragons picked up their first penalty points as a direct result of our own scrum going backwards, Shanners snagged off a reeling scrum. Pinged for holding.

Their try came a phase after they had destroyed a scrum about the 22 mark, got the nudge on, defensive line on the back foot and they had a perfect attacking platform.

When is this going to be addressed? Resolved?

Appreciate this has been discussed elsewhere on various threads but it really needs brought together under one umbrella due to its magnitude.

Are we missing a top class scrummaging lock who is a top class lineout operator? some massively underrated FVdM, berating his ball carrying...... what I wouldn't give for him right now.

We've tried various props and hookers, 2nd row has been the same three guys.... is it personnel?
Is are technique all wrong?

I could maybe have some empathy if it were the scrum or the lineout but it's both! :banghead:

It needs to stop. Stop I tell ya!
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UlsterNo9
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Re: The state of our set piece

Post by UlsterNo9 » Sun Oct 28, 2018 6:10 pm

Lineout Stats

Vs Racing won 9 out of 12 of our own
Vs Dragons won 11 out of 15 of our own

That's pure stats, not reflecting the unclean wins and persuing shambles.
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Re: The state of our set piece

Post by Amiga500 » Sun Oct 28, 2018 7:18 pm

UlsterNo9 wrote:That's pure stats, not reflecting the unclean wins and persuing shambles.
Aye, there wouldn't be too many of them clean off the top!

Now, re. the scrum... I dunno what Aaron Dundon is doing, but whatever it is, it isn't working! I'd also say Dan, as a former prop, should be shouldering some responsibility for it. If whatever AD is suggesting isn't realistic or useful, the DMcF should be stepping in and rectifying it, or going to the higher ups and saying "I need a new scrum coach".

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Dave
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Re: The state of our set piece

Post by Dave » Sun Oct 28, 2018 8:47 pm

The lineout seemed to function much better prior to Rory returning. At least that is my impression. McBurney's throwing has been class he will hopefully get another opportunity against Treviso.

The scrum is just broken. Likely it won't be fixed without new personnel. We haven't seen the Hond, Rodney or Tommy O'Hagan thus far this season. We are in transition sure. It will be grand.
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Re: The state of our set piece

Post by Dharper » Sun Oct 28, 2018 9:10 pm

A likely combo of everything. Currently we have no consistant pro 14 competent scrummaging LH, nevermind a competent backup to them....or any level above pro 14.

I'm not sure what is going on with SVDM, but if he is just playing AIL, with no appearances likely for whatever reason id just pay him off. "ghost squad members" do nobody any good.

I really would question after the scrummaging woes last yr - what was the strategy at LH for this season,.....now UR should be accountable for that!! Bryn at the supporters meeting last season stated he expected more from SVDM....clearly something has happened behind the scenes. Why was RAY re signed? to steady the A's scrum at TH in the BI cup run, or is he an emergency LH option.

We are at least 1 quality 2nd row short, we lack some oomph in the scrum from the 2nd row, and a lineout nerd, really AOC & KT should be 3/4/5 choices not 2/3. The lineout has been tom kite for a few yrs defo from Franco leaving, but it was a sad decline from Mullers days. RB has never been the most consistant of throwers. I suspect the calling isn't the best either - the 5m throw towards the tail against leic when we were chasing a try, rather than a safe one to the front is a moot point. Not sure our backrow are particularly great lineout operators which limits the options even further.

If they don't have the players to work with, there isn't a lot you can do. Very simply we will not make the play offs without a set piece, with RB (to a degree) but definitely IH missing throughout this season due to WC yr, we are knackered. Really it is frightening to think we are going to be very reliant on AOC & KT throughout the season.

Tight 5 development is slower, are UR really expecting 3/4 pups to come through for next season? If not they need a plan NOW. Whether that is domestic or NIQ recruitment.

To be fair Aug 19 is actually far more likely to reflect a DMcF squad.
The backs options are pretty decent, but without a decent platform they'll never reach their potential, as a squad. :red:

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Re: The state of our set piece

Post by Bogbunny » Sun Oct 28, 2018 9:54 pm

[quote="Dharper"]A likely combo of everything. Currently we have no consistant pro 14 competent scrummaging LH, nevermind a competent backup to them....or any level above pro 14.

I'm not sure what is going on with SVDM, but if he is just playing AIL, with no appearances likely for whatever reason id just pay him off. "ghost squad members" do nobody any good.

I really would question after the scrummaging woes last yr - what was the strategy at LH for this season,.....now UR should be accountable for that!! Bryn at the supporters meeting last season stated he expected more from SVDM....clearly something has happened behind the scenes. Why was RAY re signed? to steady the A's scrum at TH in the BI cup run, or is he an emergency LH option.

We are at least 1 quality 2nd row short, we lack some oomph in the scrum from the 2nd row, and a lineout nerd, really AOC & KT should be 3/4/5 choices not 2/3. The lineout has been tom kite for a few yrs defo from Franco leaving, but it was a sad decline from Mullers days. RB has never been the most consistant of throwers. I suspect the calling isn't the best either - the 5m throw towards the tail against leic when we were chasing a try, rather than a safe one to the front is a moot point. Not sure our backrow are particularly great lineout operators which limits the options even further.

If they don't have the players to work with, there isn't a lot you can do. Very simply we will not make the play offs without a set piece, with RB (to a degree) but definitely IH missing throughout this season due to WC yr, we are knackered. Really it is frightening to think we are going to be very reliant on AOC & KT throughout the season.

Tight 5 development is slower, are UR really expecting 3/4 pups to come through for next season? If not they need a plan NOW. Whether that is domestic or NIQ recruitment.

To be fair Aug 19 is actually far more likely to reflect a DMcF squad.
The backs options are pretty decent, but without a decent platform they'll never reach their potential, as a squad. :red:[/qa]

Agree with most of this. Compared with the quality of the 2012 final we have big to massive step down in every position in the pack bar Hendy. Best 2012 >>>2018. We are not going to be at the business end of any competition for a few years at least. :(
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Re: The state of our set piece

Post by BaggyTrousers » Sun Oct 28, 2018 11:07 pm

Guys this is not a surprise, we set out this season with a soul full of hope, when really a hole full of soap was more realistic.

Anyone remember that clown FOLK stating we were well stocked in the 2nd row after he told Dan Tuohy to find himself another club & Dan very soon did? Since then we've gassed Robbie Diack, as weak as harp lager as a ball carrier & disappointingly our best lineout option, we have lost 2 Metre Peter and Big Jeannie Deysel who was another back row/2nd row option.

Add in that Callum Black hated FOLK so much that he got his agent to contact Worcester before Ulster knew what was going on and well......................LOOK ....... its not rocket science why we are struggling in the front five.

But hey ..........back up the bus........ in theory we have a bloody good back row, near enough half a dozen who will do a good job for you. I'll spoonerise this for you and say that they are playing in stits and farts.

So overall we have a huge LH weakness, hookers not firing, a dearth of second rows and a backrow not playing up to their collective ability.

LOOK ......... all but dunces know this year is not going to be pretty, they have actually done better than I expected at this stage to be fair, but the thing is, nobody can do a damned thing about the areas where the squad is pishpoor. No point at all in blaming the coaches in isolation. There are players of talent not showing it at present.

The future is not all rosy, neither is it entirely bleak, and yes some players are emerging but we have nothing like a competitive squad............live with it, grasp at every possible sign that things are on the up - Shanners not being fu@king useless the last few weeks, Tredders looking like somebody stuck a hair or maybe a hare up his hole, two successive games where he showed a touch of elevated dander. It's the small incremental improvements that coaches and players can bring that will hopefully lead to a better squad.

Maybe even some shrewd buying to get rid of Hond and replace Deysel, you don't need to go for a Charless, other teams come up with players who are little known to most yet are very very competent players.

Think 3-5 years, anything before that is a bonus. True bill.
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Re: The state of our set piece

Post by UlsterNo9 » Sun Oct 28, 2018 11:36 pm

When you have the Irish captain at hooker, a thp with 10 international caps and an established Ireland 2nd rower getting demolished upfront by a Dragons B team you've got a set piece problem.

I'd have no issue if it was O'Sullivan, McBurney and O'Toole getting smashed at scrum time learning their trade on the road to Mecca but that was not the case.

There's much more wrong than waiting for boys to develop into men.
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Re: The state of our set piece

Post by Big-al » Sun Oct 28, 2018 11:51 pm

Moore was rubbish last season for Wasps, it is not a new thing.

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Re: The state of our set piece

Post by Dave » Mon Oct 29, 2018 12:58 am

We will really have to look at nicking a LH off another province. Someone like Dooley might follow the Jordi route? Is there any way to tempt Buckley?
Last edited by Dave on Mon Oct 29, 2018 8:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The state of our set piece

Post by BaggyTrousers » Mon Oct 29, 2018 8:36 am

UlsterNo9 wrote:When you have the Irish captain at hooker, a thp with 10 international caps and an established Ireland 2nd rower getting demolished upfront by a Dragons B team you've got a set piece problem.

I'd have no issue if it was O'Sullivan, McBurney and O'Toole getting smashed at scrum time learning their trade on the road to Mecca but that was not the case.

There's much more wrong than waiting for boys to develop into men.
On the face of it that looks fair, however, the Irish captain is not up to speed after a significant injury, I'd guess the lack of game time is the only reason he was allowed to play, the 10 cap prop (all as a sub and none recently) is also on the way back from a long break & the 2nd row .........well Hendy can blow hot & cold, he's been warmer in the main than on Friday.

It's also not simply true that 3 experienced men can carry a front five. We have not got a LH worth the steam off yer pish on the books, it's a major problem and there is no immediate fix, when one side of the scrum is that weak you have problems no matter who the other 3/4 are.

As for Treadwell, I thought he was the best of the pack on Friday & did ok in Paris but FFFS we've been lamenting him being the new R Diack for 2 years and there is simply nobody else on the books with any hint of taking his place.

If you interpreted my post as saying, hould on lads and all will be great in 3-5 years, you misunderstand me. I'm saying we have a weak squad with some gaping holes and no immediate way of filling those holes. I'm saying the fix is distant and that it is unrealistic to expect anything to change in the short term, 1) because we can't go to a transfer market in a January window & 2) even if we could, we are brassic and with low crowds, that too will get worse before it gets better.

I share your pain.
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Re: The state of our set piece

Post by Kofi Annan » Mon Oct 29, 2018 8:47 am

Players can be coached, players can be individually challenged and improved,
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Re: The state of our set piece

Post by Bogbunny » Mon Oct 29, 2018 9:03 am

Kofi Annan wrote:Players can be coached, players can be individually challenged and improved,
True but you can only polish a turd so much
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Re: The state of our set piece

Post by Kofi Annan » Mon Oct 29, 2018 10:00 am

Bogbunny wrote:
Kofi Annan wrote:Players can be coached, players can be individually challenged and improved,
True but you can only polish a turd so much
Are you blaming the players ?
“For the liespotter who knows how to listen well, the random words, sounds, and phrases in a person's speech are never as random as they seem. They offer a clear sightline into the liar's psyche.”

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Re: The state of our set piece

Post by Kofi Annan » Mon Oct 29, 2018 10:01 am

UlsterNo9 wrote:When you have the Irish captain at hooker, a thp with 10 international caps and an established Ireland 2nd rower getting demolished upfront by a Dragons B team you've got a set piece problem.

I'd have no issue if it was O'Sullivan, McBurney and O'Toole getting smashed at scrum time learning their trade on the road to Mecca but that was not the case.

There's much more wrong than waiting for boys to develop into men.
Just say for god sake man.
“For the liespotter who knows how to listen well, the random words, sounds, and phrases in a person's speech are never as random as they seem. They offer a clear sightline into the liar's psyche.”

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