Bluenoses vs Ulster

[Dave]

The consensus in the Horse Show after the game was that the Leinster fans were marginally less smug and insincere than usual, largely based upon their favourable comments about our “youngsters”. Mind you, they appeared to be under the impression that Shanners was fresh out of 6th form

The exile from Blackpool was particularly challenging but I confirmed that blue suited him more than tangerine.

Someone took great exception to the Ulster fleg at the final whistle.

Oh and the pitch was annexed by the the Catalans........

Heard about that. Seemed to be a few ballbegs in the North stand. sems to go with a full house.

Do tell...

[Neil F]

As 9 says, a lot of sense being talked on this thread. We knew this wasn't going to be a good season and the next few will probably not be much better; a few great wins, a few grim defeats. Let's just keep cool, enjoy the good bits; put up with the bad. We'll see how things turn out under the new regime.

SUFTUM

There are two counteracting forces at work here, though. The first is that Ulster have a long, slow rebuild ahead and as fans, I don't think there's much more we can to than to buy into the hope that it will, this time, be successful. Personally speaking, I like what I've seen of McFarland, even if I am not at all convinced by any of his assistants (who knows, maybe we'll see some movement on that front from net season). The good performances we've seen this season are something from which I think Ulster can genuinely build, even if they are still over-reliant on a small number of senior players. I have no doubt that it's is a long rebuild but I'll do all I can to tough it out, taking the highs and lows with good grace. It's about all one can do.

The other force is the massive frustration that comes from watching Ulster make the same mistakes, time and time again and that so many of those mistakes appear to relate to nothing other than concentration. I think one key example is how often Ulster have an attacking line out in a good position; balls up the line out; then make it easy for the opposing team to shift the ball out of defence. As a fan, it's hugely demoralising to see a promising attacking platform turned into a dangerous defensive one in such a short period of time; I can't imagine what it feels like for the players; yet it happens with disturbing regularity. Talent, power and strength and conditioning, alone, cannot explain Ulster's habit of compounding one error with several others. Leinster's third try being a perfect example. Ulster work bloody hard to get over the Leinster line and, at that point, seemed to be coming back into the game. Then they switch off at the restart; and compound that with several pathetic attempts at tackles. Suddenly, the game is over.

In this sense, I can almost accept the poor skills, the apparent differentials in condition and raw talent - these are not short-term fixes and one can only hope that the changes to the systems that we've heard about begin to pay off in the coming seasons. But no amount of skills training, strong tactics, or individual talent can mask the other deficiencies that seems to be accepted at Ulster. Things like conditioning and talent production, I can accept as long-term problems within the Ulster setup that cannot be fixed over night. On those things, I am content to be patient. There are other things, though, where I think we have the right to be frustrated that we still haven't seen improvement.

[UlsterNo9]

I think one key example is how often Ulster have an attacking line out in a good position; balls up the line out; then make it easy for the opposing team to shift the ball out of defence. As a fan, it's hugely demoralising to see a promising attacking platform turned into a dangerous defensive one in such a short period of time; I can't imagine what it feels like for the players; yet it happens with disturbing regularity.

I agree with you on that one Neil, one question though (I don't know the answer to), how often do we successfully defend the same situation when the opposition are attacking at the opposite end of the pitch?

Question not directed at Neil, open to all.

What's the average try success rate from close range lineouts? One in four?

This is a decent read
http://www.andymcgeady.com/lineoutmaths/

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/ ... -1.2519726

[222toHounslow]

I was disappointed to see so few Ulster fans in the crowd on Saturday.
There's usually a good number down for this fixture, regardless of how many reserves are playing for the two sides.
Maybe it's the sterling rate being affected by Brexit.

As for the match itself, it was really a glorified training session for both teams and forgettable, which it now is.

I’m not, the stadium is a shîthole and the support is made up from Bellends and Gobshîtes.

[Neil F]

I think one key example is how often Ulster have an attacking line out in a good position; balls up the line out; then make it easy for the opposing team to shift the ball out of defence. As a fan, it's hugely demoralising to see a promising attacking platform turned into a dangerous defensive one in such a short period of time; I can't imagine what it feels like for the players; yet it happens with disturbing regularity.

I agree with you on that one Neil, one question though (I don't know the answer to), how often do we successfully defend the same situation when the opposition are attacking at the opposite end of the pitch?

Question not directed at Neil, open to all.

Without recourse to firm stats, but an impression from watching from a distance (so, take that with a pinch of salt)... It seems to me that Ulster blow good attacking platforms much more often than our opposition. More so, I'd be quite certain that Ulster are much better at turning their own botched attacking platforms into manic defence than they can enforce such defence in their opposition from the same positions.

More generally, Ulster's defence in the 22 leaves a lot to be desired. I have very little faith that Ulster will hold out a multi-phase opposition attack in the 22. It seems to be a position that Ulster, routinely, concede from. I was actually quite impressed by how long Ulster held the last Leinster attack of the first half out, but eventually, the try came. I'd say with any other province, I have fairly strong faith that they can get themselves out of that situation; I don't yet have that confidence with Ulster. In fairness, I think Ulster's defence from the line out has improved substantially as this season has gone on; but that's not saying a lot. It seemed at some point last season, Ulster had entirely stopped contesting the ball on the opposition's throw, which is at least a thing of the past now. The maul defence was nothing short of pathetic at the start of the season and is a place where, although I don't think it's as effective as it should be, has obviously improved. These things give me faith in McFarland - that he can identify these weaknesses and at least improve on them. I'm not sure things like concentration can be improved in the same way, though and I think that's where Ulster's biggest problems lie.

[justinr73]

The consensus in the Horse Show after the game was that the Leinster fans were marginally less smug and insincere than usual, largely based upon their favourable comments about our “youngsters”. Mind you, they appeared to be under the impression that Shanners was fresh out of 6th form

The exile from Blackpool was particularly challenging but I confirmed that blue suited him more than tangerine.

Someone took great exception to the Ulster fleg at the final whistle.

Oh and the pitch was annexed by the the Catalans........

Heard about that. Seemed to be a few ballbegs in the North stand. sems to go with a full house.

Do tell...

So the game itself passed without incident, much as it did for the Leinster defence.

Upon the final whistle, the fleg was unfurled in the usual gesture of support for the lads on the pitch. Being a Lionel, I'm not an expert on these things but I understand it be the 'Ulster Banner' - the one with the crown on - and the same fleg which has travelled as many miles to watch UIster Rugby as Gusher has.

Despite the home fans doing their best to empty the RDS from about 70 minutes, there was still a queue to get out of the North Stand and a middle-aged Mr Angry started bellowing from towards the top of it.

I initially thought he was having a go at HWM who, to be fair, had been tolerated with a degree of amusement, and no little curiosity, prior to that.

It was pointed out to the fella that this was a rugby match we were all at and that seemed to be the end of it until he came along to introduce himself/debate the issue further/ cause a confrontation (or all of the above).

Needless to say, he was dealt with politely but firmly although his flame-haired offspring probably deserves a bit of credit for taking him home.

It was quite unsavoury without it ever really getting out of hand.

[justinr73]

With all the talk about McPhillips lying too deep.... I wonder does he simply rock up on a Saturday and play his own game or does he take instructions from the coaching staff.

Btw still not convinced Payne is a top defence coach maybe time will tell and anyway if players simply can’t tackle then they need to learn.

Persisting with Lowry at 15 is unlikely to do anyone any good, especially the boy himself.

[promenader 2]

The consensus in the Horse Show after the game was that the Leinster fans were marginally less smug and insincere than usual, largely based upon their favourable comments about our “youngsters”. Mind you, they appeared to be under the impression that Shanners was fresh out of 6th form

The exile from Blackpool was particularly challenging but I confirmed that blue suited him more than tangerine.

Someone took great exception to the Ulster fleg at the final whistle.

Oh and the pitch was annexed by the the Catalans........

Heard about that. Seemed to be a few ballbegs in the North stand. sems to go with a full house.

Do tell...

So the game itself passed without incident, much as it did for the Leinster defence.

Upon the final whistle, the fleg was unfurled in the usual gesture of support for the lads on the pitch. Being a Lionel, I'm not an expert on these things but I understand it be the 'Ulster Banner' - the one with the crown on - and the same fleg which has travelled as many miles to watch UIster Rugby as Gusher has.

Despite the home fans doing their best to empty the RDS from about 70 minutes, there was still a queue to get out of the North Stand and a middle-aged Mr Angry started bellowing from towards the top of it.

I initially thought he was having a go at HWM who, to be fair, had been tolerated with a degree of amusement, and no little curiosity, prior to that.

It was pointed out to the fella that this was a rugby match we were all at and that seemed to be the end of it until he came along to introduce himself/debate the issue further/ cause a confrontation (or all of the above).

Needless to say, he was dealt with politely but firmly although his flame-haired offspring probably deserves a bit of credit for taking him home.

It was quite unsavoury without it ever really getting out of hand.

Mr Angry is obviously a bell-end. That said, I've yet to witness a Leinster fan waving a tricolour at Ravenhill. I suspect I'd be irritated if I did.

[Dave]

Hard to believe twunts are still bringing UVF NI gawa flegz to Rugby matches.

[UlsterNo9]

Hard to believe twunts are still bringing UVF NI gawa flegz to Rugby matches.

Northern Ireland flag...... Ulster provincial flag

What is the difference?

It has been a while.

[Dave]

Hard to believe twunts are still bringing UVF NI gawa flegz to Rugby matches.

Northern Ireland flag...... Ulster provincial flag

What is the difference?

It has been a while.

One is to support Ulster.

One is to be sectarian.

[solidarity]

I think one key example is how often Ulster have an attacking line out in a good position; balls up the line out; then make it easy for the opposing team to shift the ball out of defence. As a fan, it's hugely demoralising to see a promising attacking platform turned into a dangerous defensive one in such a short period of time; I can't imagine what it feels like for the players; yet it happens with disturbing regularity.

I agree with you on that one Neil, one question though (I don't know the answer to), how often do we successfully defend the same situation when the opposition are attacking at the opposite end of the pitch?

Question not directed at Neil, open to all.

Without recourse to firm stats, but an impression from watching from a distance (so, take that with a pinch of salt)... It seems to me that Ulster blow good attacking platforms much more often than our opposition. More so, I'd be quite certain that Ulster are much better at turning their own botched attacking platforms into manic defence than they can enforce such defence in their opposition from the same positions.

More generally, Ulster's defence in the 22 leaves a lot to be desired. I have very little faith that Ulster will hold out a multi-phase opposition attack in the 22. It seems to be a position that Ulster, routinely, concede from. I was actually quite impressed by how long Ulster held the last Leinster attack of the first half out, but eventually, the try came. I'd say with any other province, I have fairly strong faith that they can get themselves out of that situation; I don't yet have that confidence with Ulster. In fairness, I think Ulster's defence from the line out has improved substantially as this season has gone on; but that's not saying a lot. It seemed at some point last season, Ulster had entirely stopped contesting the ball on the opposition's throw, which is at least a thing of the past now. The maul defence was nothing short of pathetic at the start of the season and is a place where, although I don't think it's as effective as it should be, has obviously improved. These things give me faith in McFarland - that he can identify these weaknesses and at least improve on them. I'm not sure things like concentration can be improved in the same way, though and I think that's where Ulster's biggest problems lie.

Can't disagree with any of this. The dodgy attacking lineout seems to be part of a bigger dodgy attack, full stop. Only Dragons and Zebre have scored fewer tries (Kings have scored two fewer but they have two matches in hand). We have only two Try bonus points; only Dragons have fewer. The three teams above us are there purely on their bonus points! Leaving out the two SA teams, with their matches in hand, only Zebre and Dragons have scored fewer points overall. How often do we see Ulster backs receiving the ball at a gallop? Rarely have they any momentum and they rarely present much of a threat in the centre of the park.

Our defensive stats are not great either of course but, if we were getting across the line more often, we could leak a few and get away with it.

[Neil F]

Can't disagree with any of this. The dodgy attacking lineout seems to be part of a bigger dodgy attack, full stop. Only Dragons and Zebre have scored fewer tries (Kings have scored two fewer but they have two matches in hand). We have only two Try bonus points; only Dragons have fewer. The three teams above us are there purely on their bonus points! Leaving out the two SA teams, with their matches in hand, only Zebre and Dragons have scored fewer points overall. How often do we see Ulster backs receiving the ball at a gallop? Rarely have they any momentum and they rarely present much of a threat in the centre of the park.

Our defensive stats are not great either of course but, if we were getting across the line more often, we could leak a few and get away with it.

In attack, I think I've seen a few green shoots, too but they are a bit harder to find - I do think ball retention has been significantly better recently. But, for a few seasons, Ulster have only looked likely to score tries of first-phase or set-piece ball. The shape goes alarmingly quickly in multi-phase play and has done for some time. Given that I live in Berlin I watch almost all of the games on TV, so perhaps others in the stadium have a different view but it seems rare that an Ulster play comes onto the ball from off-screen. It seems obvious who is going to carry the ball much of the time, and that makes Ulster very easy to defend against. The contrast in who was carrying, from where, and how the defences coped in the opening salvos on Saturday was unbelievably pronounced. Leinster players were coming from everywhere and Ulster's defence struggled. Ulster were telegraphed and Leinster's defence comfortable.

Something I've been wondering for a couple of years is if Ulster's poor attack and defence actually feed off each other in the training environment. In that sense, it must be easy to defend against a telegraphed attack in training, so the defence never really improves, and that it's so easy to attack against a weak defence in training that Ulster struggle against real defences.

[Cap'n Grumpy]

I was disappointed to see so few Ulster fans in the crowd on Saturday.
There's usually a good number down for this fixture, regardless of how many reserves are playing for the two sides.
Maybe it's the sterling rate being affected by Brexit.

I used to go to Dublin regularly for these fixtures but haven't been for a few years now. I haven't travelled to any away matches for I think 3 years now for personal and health reasons but I had stopped going to RDS before I stopped going elsewhere.

I always enjoyed my trips to Thomond in Limerick, The Sports Ground in Galway and even Donkeybrook in Dublin. Great fans in all and enjoyed the atmosphere win, lose or draw at all three. That even despite being threatened with a knife in Thomond. Steriotypical, I know, but it did happen. It was Munster Supporters though who stepped in and literaly saved me from a probably hospital trip instead of a rugby match. Any reason not then to like Munster proper fans? No, I thought not. There are eejits who let the side down everywhere - including Ulster.

Sadly though, with increased success and the move to larger capacity at the RDS, Leinster now have far more of their fair share of what I can only call just nasty, ignorant, patronising, rude snide supporters who just suck all enjoyment out of any rugby match and any trip to Dublin. I have enjoyed banter and fun with supporters in Galway and Limerick, irrespective of the result of the match, so no one tell me I'm just a bad loser. I'll tell you, I've had plenty of practice and am actually a very good loser.

I used to get the same enjoyment at Donkeybrook (and yes,the fans there didn't mind the name change anymore that I minded what they said in return - there was mutual respect), and even in the early days at RDS, but by heaven have Leinster fans sucked all enjoyment out of any trip to Dublin now. The team and the losses have nothing to to with it, it is 100% down to the blue-shirts watching in the stadium, not the ones playing.

If that's harsh, tough. It is how I genuinely feel and how I felt I have been treated by the Leinster supporting public. There used to be good grace shown by supporters whether winning or losing, and most sets of supporters retain that, but Leinster ones have lost it some time ago.

[Dave]

Typified by that rat, FBOD.