Tickets and seat allocations 20/21

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big mervyn
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Re: Tickets and seat allocations 20/21

Post by big mervyn » Wed Jun 10, 2020 4:32 pm

Cracker wrote:
Wed Jun 10, 2020 3:50 pm
Thanks Flattop but my main concern is if there will be Aquinas Parking Season tickets available for next season ( if it happens).
Probably be easier to get into the car park than the ground next year.

Can't see socially distanced capacity being any more than 4.5k. Sans band aside, the atmosphere will be p1ss poor.

Seriously considering taking a furlough until 21/22.
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Re: Tickets and seat allocations 20/21

Post by Bobbievee » Wed Jun 10, 2020 5:51 pm

M
Likewise

And Niner.......Westdr has been offered a credit.....Not a cash refund as required by law.

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Re: Tickets and seat allocations 20/21

Post by flatpass » Wed Jun 10, 2020 7:17 pm

On the UR website, under FAQs, posted 8 June, is the following Information:

“What is the deadline to claim the credit, or full refund, that I am entitled to?
The deadline is 5pm on Tuesday 30 June. Following the 30 June deadline, any outstanding credit / refund amount will be gratefully received by Ulster Rugby and will go towards ensuring that the club is in as strong a position as possible to return when the time is right.“

My reading of the question is that UR accepts that some ST holders, ticket holders, etc, may wish to claim the full refund. The answer refers to credits/refunds being gratefully received by UR if they are still ‘outstanding’ by 30 June.

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big mervyn
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Re: Tickets and seat allocations 20/21

Post by big mervyn » Wed Jun 10, 2020 8:18 pm

flatpass wrote:
Wed Jun 10, 2020 7:17 pm
On the UR website, under FAQs, posted 8 June, is the following Information:

“What is the deadline to claim the credit, or full refund, that I am entitled to?
The deadline is 5pm on Tuesday 30 June. Following the 30 June deadline, any outstanding credit / refund amount will be gratefully received by Ulster Rugby and will go towards ensuring that the club is in as strong a position as possible to return when the time is right.“

My reading of the question is that UR accepts that some ST holders, ticket holders, etc, may wish to claim the full refund. The answer refers to credits/refunds being gratefully received by UR if they are still ‘outstanding’ by 30 June.
Does the "refund" element not refer to individual match tkts rather than part of a ST?
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Re: Tickets and seat allocations 20/21

Post by damianmcr » Wed Jun 10, 2020 9:05 pm

Yes I believe it does Merv.

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Re: Tickets and seat allocations 20/21

Post by WestDr » Wed Jun 10, 2020 9:20 pm

Flatpass, sorry for the length of this, but here is the email as sent to all season ticket holders at 10.00am on Monday 8th June:
*********************************************************************
Firstly, thank you for your patience and understanding regarding your Ulster Rugby Season Ticket(s).

The IRFU recently announced that the remainder of the 2019/20 Guinness PRO14 season is likely to be played behind closed doors at Aviva Stadium. With that in mind, we feel now is the appropriate time to outline how this affects our most loyal supporters.

From today, Season Ticket holders will be entitled to claim an account credit of 20% of the value of their Season Ticket, and in these extraordinary times, we are providing existing Season Ticket holders with two options:

Option 1: Support the club

Season Ticket holders have the option to donate their credit amount to Ulster Rugby, to support the club during a particularly challenging time when revenues have been severely impacted due to the COVID-19 pandemic.

Your donation will be gratefully received and will go towards ensuring that the club is in as strong a position as possible to return when the time is right.

Option 2: Claim a credit

With one Category A and three Category B games left on 2019/20 Season Tickets, we are offering you the opportunity to claim an account credit of 20% of the value of your Season Ticket(s). This also applies to those holding Bar Passes and Car Park Passes.

This credit will be added to your Ulster Rugby Account Manager, and can be used towards 2020/21 Membership Packages, the renewal of your Season Ticket in 2021/22, or individual match tickets when they are available.

How to select your preference

Following the steps below, please let us know which option you would like to choose by 5pm on Tuesday 30 June 2020. Should you take no action by the 30 June deadline, any outstanding credit / refund amount will be gratefully received by Ulster Rugby.
• Log into your Ulster Rugby Account Manager where you normally manage your Season Tickets.
• Instruct us by selecting either Option 1 (Donate the credit amount to Ulster Rugby) or Option 2 (Claim the credit amount and add it to your account).
• To view the amount of credit available, hover over your name on the top right of the page and select Your Account.
• Select the option My Account & Credit and your available credit will be visible.
#TogetherUlster | 2020/21 Season Membership

Today we are also announcing that, due to the likely introduction of social distancing measures at sporting events for some time to come, Ulster Rugby will not offer a traditional Season Ticket option in 2020/21. Instead, we will be offering a new official membership package - #TogetherUlster. Keep an eye on our website and social media channels for more details and announcements.

Please note:

Existing Season Ticket holders will still retain all rights and benefits for the 2021/22 season, when we expect to reintroduce a Season Ticket offering.


***********************************************
I would suggest that it's pretty clear that the options are (i) donate and (ii) a credit. No refund for ST holders. Some may interpret the FAQ statement that 'match ticket holders get a full refund' refers to all those who bought tickets, whether via an ST or for one match (e.g. Leinster). This interpretation would appear to differ significantly from the email above and that is one of the reasons why I've asked for a refund for the 4 matches, as well as ensuring that UR are compliant with their own T's & C's, consumer law and best/common practice at this time.

I'd also add that a season ticket holder known to me has been onto her UR Account Manager and confirmed that the only options offered were (i) donation and (ii) a credit.

Finally, here's a list from Which of what other events (sporting and otherwise) are doing/have done. Note Euro 2020......
https://www.which.co.uk/news/2020/05/co ... ck/#events

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Re: Tickets and seat allocations 20/21

Post by WestDr » Wed Jun 10, 2020 9:28 pm

And as an aside, I'd say the pressure was on judging by these two articles in the 42 rugby...
https://www.the42.ie/munster-5-5118656-Jun2020/ and https://www.the42.ie/rpa-english-premie ... 2-Jun2020/. The first comment in the second article is class.... Perhaps the 'is pro rugby as we know it finished' thread needs a re-visit, but if next season there's only 4.5k in Ravenhill, and the same in the other grounds, then something has to give somewhere....

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Gerald the Mole
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Re: Tickets and seat allocations 20/21

Post by Gerald the Mole » Wed Jun 10, 2020 9:30 pm

Ah the “fans” be good little people and give it to “your” club, it’s not a club, it’s a business that will feck each and everyone of you

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Re: Tickets and seat allocations 20/21

Post by flatpass » Wed Jun 10, 2020 10:44 pm

WestDr, I’ve read the FAQs again and take your point. While the FAQ to which I referred is capable of more than one interpretation, the others are unambiguous, as is the email to ST holders.

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Re: Tickets and seat allocations 20/21

Post by WestDr » Wed Jun 10, 2020 10:51 pm

flatpass wrote:
Wed Jun 10, 2020 10:44 pm
WestDr, I’ve read the FAQs again and take your point. While the FAQ to which I referred is capable of more than one interpretation, the others are unambiguous, as is the email to ST holders.
No problem - happy to help. If you want to follow up with your own email to UR, feel free.

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UlsterNo9
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Re: Tickets and seat allocations 20/21

Post by UlsterNo9 » Thu Jun 11, 2020 8:48 am

Bobbievee wrote:
Wed Jun 10, 2020 5:51 pm
M
Likewise

And Niner.......Westdr has been offered a credit.....Not a cash refund as required by law.
Thanks Bobbie,

If he asks for a cash refund and Ulster rugby refuse that then yes a law has been broken, that's not the case as yet I believe.

I'd be unhappy if IRFU are asked for cash refund it's not granted.
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Re: Tickets and seat allocations 20/21

Post by WestDr » Thu Jun 11, 2020 10:09 am

UlsterNo9 wrote:
Thu Jun 11, 2020 8:48 am
Bobbievee wrote:
Wed Jun 10, 2020 5:51 pm
M
Likewise

And Niner.......Westdr has been offered a credit.....Not a cash refund as required by law.
Thanks Bobbie,

If he asks for a cash refund and Ulster rugby refuse that then yes a law has been broken, that's not the case as yet I believe.

I'd be unhappy if IRFU are asked for cash refund it's not granted.
Well, Niner, the issue is that I don't have a contract for my season ticket with the IRFU, but with UR. It's preferable that UR comply with the law as it stands (as the CMA think it runs) rather than season ticket holders have to remind them ?

Take a look at what Everton FC are doing in identical circumstances: https://www.evertonfc.com/refund/faq. I have passed this example onto Jonny Petrie and all of the senior management team at UR in following up my earlier letter to them. I am particularly impressed with (a) where any donation goes and (b) that refunds will be held for 6 months.

Worse than this performance by UR/IRFU, is that even Warwickshire Cricket Club (who are now run by Mark McCafferty) are doing better !

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UlsterNo9
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Re: Tickets and seat allocations 20/21

Post by UlsterNo9 » Thu Jun 11, 2020 12:35 pm

WestDr wrote:
Thu Jun 11, 2020 10:09 am
UlsterNo9 wrote:
Thu Jun 11, 2020 8:48 am
Bobbievee wrote:
Wed Jun 10, 2020 5:51 pm
M
Likewise

And Niner.......Westdr has been offered a credit.....Not a cash refund as required by law.
Thanks Bobbie,

If he asks for a cash refund and Ulster rugby refuse that then yes a law has been broken, that's not the case as yet I believe.

I'd be unhappy if IRFU are asked for cash refund it's not granted.
Well, Niner, the issue is that I don't have a contract for my season ticket with the IRFU, but with UR. It's preferable that UR comply with the law as it stands (as the CMA think it runs) rather than season ticket holders have to remind them ?

Take a look at what Everton FC are doing in identical circumstances: https://www.evertonfc.com/refund/faq. I have passed this example onto Jonny Petrie and all of the senior management team at UR in following up my earlier letter to them. I am particularly impressed with (a) where any donation goes and (b) that refunds will be held for 6 months.

Worse than this performance by UR/IRFU, is that even Warwickshire Cricket Club (who are now run by Mark McCafferty) are doing better !
From a legal point of view Ulster Branch/IRFU are doing nothing wrong which I thought was the issue? As per previous posts.
The contract is between yourself and Ulster rugby, I don't doubt for one second they needed reminded they would be aware a cash refund is an option however not their preferable one as with any business with a projected downturn in revenue for the foreseeable. You are also half of the contract it's your responsibility to know what's in the contract.

Comparing to Everton FC/Warwickshire Cricket Club would be a moral/ethical issue. Which I completely get.

If you are refused a refund I will be the first person to fight your corner.
BRING OUR BOYS HOME #BOBH
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big mervyn
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Re: Tickets and seat allocations 20/21

Post by big mervyn » Thu Jun 11, 2020 12:40 pm

If there is some sort of membership for tkt access next season, it should at least be complimentary for those who have donated their unused ST credit.
Volunteer at an animal sanctuary; it will fill you with joy , despair, but most of all love, unconditional love of the animals.
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Re: Tickets and seat allocations 20/21

Post by WestDr » Thu Jun 11, 2020 1:39 pm

Well, Niner, as you acknowledge, the contract is between the season ticket holder and UR. Its terms are laid out clearly on the UR website as are the related Stadium Regulations, which also cover some aspects of ticket holders responsibilities. I agree to these when purchasing the tickets and also in the use of the tickets to attend matches.

1. Nowhere in either of those published terms and conditions is there any distinction between tickets purchased on a 'one-off' basis (match) and those on an 'advanced payment' basis (season tickets).
2. Furthermore, the published terms and conditions offer a refund within 72 hours of postponement.

By the terms of its June 8th offer to season ticket holders, UR has created this difference by introducng de facto new terms and conditions, thereby breaching the existing contract as laid down by the terms and conditions (which treats all classes of ticket holders equally, and lays down both obligations and duties to both parties to the contract). It is not me who has either not adhered to the contract, breached it or unilaterally attempted to impose revised terms and conditions. In these situations, which are those of a frustrated contract, the CMA guidance as to the operable consumer law is clear. A cash refund option should be available along with the other options.

As far as I can see, there is plenty of evidence of (a) a contract breach by UR and (b) in their current provision of remedies a failure to comply with consumer law. I have asked for what I think are suitable remedies as outlined under the original terms and conditions, to be applied equally to all tiket holders as per those terms & conditions, and in line with best practice. I do completely agree with you that it may take legal action to demonstrate both the breach and the lack of legality to their curent remedies.

Btw, any lack of knowledge or otherwise of the terms of contract does not remove the duty of either party to adhere to it (speak to Which on that one)

To add: in my experience of these matters, unfortunately at this stage of discussions it is usually the FD and General Counsel who are in control and it takes concerted efforts by those who see the bigger picture to move them. As for moral and ethical issues - well, those are for UR (and IRFU) to assess and live with the consequences (Gerald the Mole puts it well perhaps ?). If UR thought a little further, more creatively and got beyond the legal/financial people, UR (and IRFU) could actually get a real PR win out of this situation. We will see, but I do thank you for your offer of support - it is much appreciated.

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