Ulster vs Leinster at the Aviva 29/8/20

Talk about the men in white, and everything Ulster!!

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thecrouch
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Re: Ulster vs Leinster at the Aviva 29/8/20

Post by thecrouch » Sat Aug 29, 2020 10:27 pm

The gap between Ulster and Leinster is vast.
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Re: Ulster vs Leinster at the Aviva 29/8/20

Post by justinr73 » Sat Aug 29, 2020 10:55 pm

The gap between Leinster and more or less anyone is vast.

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Re: Ulster vs Leinster at the Aviva 29/8/20

Post by Columbo » Sat Aug 29, 2020 11:14 pm

Depressing couple of weeks. We have been the rustiest and least well-conditioned Irish side on show by some distance IMO - which is concerning..

I guess you have to be careful not to read too much into what are effectively pre-season games, but my big concerns/frustrations are:

- big recruitment fails. Has it not been obvious, and I mean blindingly obvious, for the last.. in fact for as long as I can remember that the most glaring squad weaknesses have been half-back back-up - belatedly dealt with this season - and back row? So why tf have we wasted 2 NIQ spots on a journeyman second row and barely a journeyman winger? Bewildering to me. Coetzee is the best back row playing in Ireland IMO, but after him I would pick at least 8 back rowers from Leinster before another Ulster player, such is the gulf in standard. I would rather have given Nagle a contract (and much cheaper he would have been than Carter..) and spent money on someone who can either carry ball or jackal, because to be perfectly frank, besides Coetzee we don’t have anyone remotely capable of doing so at any kind of level (and I include Murphy here tbh)

- conditioning - I have been impressed in general by the fitness levels of all of the guys coming back into pro rugby across the world, but we seem to be a bit off the pace..

- lineout - what can you say? It’s a joke, and I think if we’re honest has been for years. Most fans cheer when a team opts to ping a pen into the corner, my heart sinks. I don’t know if stats are collected on lineout turnovers from pens to the corner, but we must be definitely the worst in Ireland, if not Europe, at converting. How many games have we lost as a result of ceding the initiative and wasting red zone opportunity by turning over possession on our throw-in? Too many to mention... massive black mark for the forwards coaches...

- leadership / confidence - who are the leaders in our team? I honestly can’t say. It’s certainly not obvious to me that anyone out there is really taking responsibility to provide direction. And for too many games we look beaten from the very kick-off - tonight included. It didn’t look to me at any stage like we really believed we could win.
..one more thing

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Re: Ulster vs Leinster at the Aviva 29/8/20

Post by for dog and ulcer » Sat Aug 29, 2020 11:24 pm

Ulster are brill. :roll:

Actually Columbo has it well analysed. I agree with every word. I would just add that I thought Clancy was up to his usual standard. And last week's ex Connacht scrumhalf was a strange choice as an official. But Rolland used to officiate Ulster against Leinster. Are we too polite to object?

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Re: Ulster vs Leinster at the Aviva 29/8/20

Post by Alister Scott » Sat Aug 29, 2020 11:31 pm

Columbo wrote:
Sat Aug 29, 2020 11:14 pm
Depressing couple of weeks. We have been the rustiest and least well-conditioned Irish side on show by some distance IMO - which is concerning..

I guess you have to be careful not to read too much into what are effectively pre-season games, but my big concerns/frustrations are:

- big recruitment fails. Has it not been obvious, and I mean blindingly obvious, for the last.. in fact for as long as I can remember that the most glaring squad weaknesses have been half-back back-up - belatedly dealt with this season - and back row? So why tf have we wasted 2 NIQ spots on a journeyman second row and barely a journeyman winger? Bewildering to me. Coetzee is the best back row playing in Ireland IMO, but after him I would pick at least 8 back rowers from Leinster before another Ulster player, such is the gulf in standard. I would rather have given Nagle a contract (and much cheaper he would have been than Carter..) and spent money on someone who can either carry ball or jackal, because to be perfectly frank, besides Coetzee we don’t have anyone remotely capable of doing so at any kind of level (and I include Murphy here tbh)

- conditioning - I have been impressed in general by the fitness levels of all of the guys coming back into pro rugby across the world, but we seem to be a bit off the pace..

- lineout - what can you say? It’s a joke, and I think if we’re honest has been for years. Most fans cheer when a team opts to ping a pen into the corner, my heart sinks. I don’t know if stats are collected on lineout turnovers from pens to the corner, but we must be definitely the worst in Ireland, if not Europe, at converting. How many games have we lost as a result of ceding the initiative and wasting red zone opportunity by turning over possession on our throw-in? Too many to mention... massive black mark for the forwards coaches...

- leadership / confidence - who are the leaders in our team? I honestly can’t say. It’s certainly not obvious to me that anyone out there is really taking responsibility to provide direction. And for too many games we look beaten from the very kick-off - tonight included. It didn’t look to me at any stage like we really believed we could win.
But apart from that was everything okay?

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Re: Ulster vs Leinster at the Aviva 29/8/20

Post by Bobbievee » Sat Aug 29, 2020 11:33 pm

Re the lineout. Other teams must lick their lips when Ulster kick to the corner. Yes it brings us the occasional try, but I would love also to see the stats. Should we resort to tap penalties and running! At least we would keep possession.

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Re: Ulster vs Leinster at the Aviva 29/8/20

Post by Neill_M » Sat Aug 29, 2020 11:45 pm

for dog and ulcer wrote:
Sat Aug 29, 2020 11:24 pm
Ulster are brill. :roll:

Actually Columbo has it well analysed. I agree with every word. I would just add that I thought Clancy was up to his usual standard. And last week's ex Connacht scrumhalf was a strange choice as an official. But Rolland used to officiate Ulster against Leinster. Are we too polite to object?
If the Cooney try is ok, we lose by 4 instead of 18 v D4 2nds. Clownshoes will be Clownshoes.

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Re: Ulster vs Leinster at the Aviva 29/8/20

Post by for dog and ulcer » Sat Aug 29, 2020 11:51 pm

And there should have been, as Jean Valjean points out a review of Penny's "try".

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Re: Ulster vs Leinster at the Aviva 29/8/20

Post by justinr73 » Sun Aug 30, 2020 12:18 am

I think our maul goes well if we can get the ball to hand.

The jury is out on Faddes and Carter, neither of whom have had chance to settle in or yet been fully fit.

Faddes probably went better than Gilroy did last week.

My understanding is that Nagle wanted a better chance of a starting berth. And a bit of sun.

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Re: Ulster vs Leinster at the Aviva 29/8/20

Post by rumncoke » Sun Aug 30, 2020 12:42 am

Bar the willingness to drop the ball forward frequently -- the performance was about 60 -70 % better than last weeks. players at least running onto passes.

Going onto the pitch with Clancy as referee must be a downer -- the Leinster back line being frequently off side in the outer regions ( outside centre - wing area )-- and on a rush defence meant passing options in that area of the pitch disappeared quickly. The penalty count against Ulster in the first 20 minutes did nothing to inspire the teams confidence .

Feddes has been a great disappointment to be honest -- slows before going into contact being his chief failing .

Hopefully the painful walking wounded are of a minor nature.

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Re: Ulster vs Leinster at the Aviva 29/8/20

Post by justinr73 » Sun Aug 30, 2020 12:52 am

The passing was noticeably flatter so they had to run on to it.

Not sure why Alby and Billy weren’t involved this week.

One self-isolating and one injured?

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Re: Ulster vs Leinster at the Aviva 29/8/20

Post by Marco » Sun Aug 30, 2020 6:08 am

I think we edged the boots, think I saw pink, blue, yellow and red in there, so let’s not get too down.

We might even have edged haircuts, it was close and the Leinster beards were impressive, but I believe Iain’s might have just got us over the line.

Will any subscribers to the online Sunday Independent please post today’s Neil Francis’ article, the heading is “if Ulster can’t take themselves seriously, how could Leinster”, love his articles but too tight to subscribe, yes I am a true Ulsterman!

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Re: Ulster vs Leinster at the Aviva 29/8/20

Post by richardt84 » Sun Aug 30, 2020 9:51 am

Columbo wrote:
Sat Aug 29, 2020 11:14 pm

- lineout - what can you say? It’s a joke, and I think if we’re honest has been for years. Most fans cheer when a team opts to ping a pen into the corner, my heart sinks. I don’t know if stats are collected on lineout turnovers from pens to the corner, but we must be definitely the worst in Ireland, if not Europe, at converting. How many games have we lost as a result of ceding the initiative and wasting red zone opportunity by turning over possession on our throw-in? Too many to mention... massive black mark for the forwards coaches...

- leadership / confidence - who are the leaders in our team? I honestly can’t say. It’s certainly not obvious to me that anyone out there is really taking responsibility to provide direction. And for too many games we look beaten from the very kick-off - tonight included. It didn’t look to me at any stage like we really believed we could win.
On the point of line outs that failing is compounded by our own decision not to compete on opposition ball on many occasions. I don’t know what the stats would say but it feels like opposition compete on our ball, including penalty attempts to the corner, but we just willingly give them an uninterrupted platform to build on by not competing. It’s especially frustrating when you see what a dodgy throw or two can do to a team, as we regularly show, but we never seem to want to it that doubt in the mind of the opposition hooker.

Another massive frustration for me over the past two weeks has been the attitude at the breakdown. While I appreciate it’s sensible not to give away easy penalties by competing on a breakdown which can’t be won, we seem to have the attitude that we won’t compete on the majority of ball meaning the new rules are of no benefit to us. Compare that to last night for example and Frawley winning a breakdown penalty against us.

On the point of leadership I’d be having a look at Coetzee on occasions when Henderson is not available. There doesn’t seem to many talkers in that team in the manner of a Best or Muller who would be calming things down behind the posts and in the absence of that I’d rather have someone who is going to set the standards and lead by example. In our last five games when Henderson hasn’t been playing we’ve been captained by Burns, Carter O’Connor (x2) and Herring and I’m not sure what we are gaining from that approach. I’d much rather have a clearly defined leadership structure.

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Re: Ulster vs Leinster at the Aviva 29/8/20

Post by Lurgan Lad » Sun Aug 30, 2020 9:51 am

Firstly all credit to Leinster seconds, played great rugby and deserved the victory. As a proud Ulsterman I must say I feel really depressed this morning, the Belfast branch of the IRFU isn't performing anywhere near where it needs to, and a lot of this has to be blamed on the academy. We also have an English coach and a Scottish head honcho. Lets look at our starting XV for this match and we can quibble on the classification of one or two:

Ulster through and through
Rea, Lyttle, McCloskey, Hume, Stockdale

Sort of half Ulster (think he was born in Leinster but came through our schools system)
TOT

Leinster through and through
EOS, Murphy, Cooney, Madigan

Bought in talent
Herring, Carter (c), Treadwell, Coetzee, Faddes

There you have it, 5 that are Ulster through and through and only 2 of them would be Ireland standard currently. Simply not good enough.

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Re: Ulster vs Leinster at the Aviva 29/8/20

Post by Lurgan Lad » Sun Aug 30, 2020 9:56 am

What I'm getting at is we need a team that has an 'Ulster' culture right through it, supplemented by quality imports. A team that are proud to play for 'their' province, and have the qualities that make so many of us proud to say we are from Ulster. What I feel we have now is simply another branch of the IRFU with little real identity.

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