Pro 14 Final vs Leinster, Sept 12th.

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DWFinn
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Re: Pro 14 Final vs Leinster, Sept 12th.

Post by DWFinn » Sun Sep 13, 2020 6:56 am

therealspratt wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 10:00 pm
Ulster need to sort out 13 as well as 10, Hume could be worth investing more time in to see how he builds but the partnership with McCloskey is maybe still missing something going forward even if they approach the defensive chemistry McCloskey and Marshall have developed together. Marshall can be really very effective but I think there's the same issue there of there being something lacking creatively going forwards between those two as well as Marshall just having that error in him. Maybe Stewart's the guy, he certainly seems to have the smarts but he has a big injury to come back from and he'll be fighting from below with the other two more experienced guys. Hume I think could really work with the right partner but I don't know if we have the 12 to match him.
Is this the shoulder injury from last year or a new one?

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big mervyn
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Re: Pro 14 Final vs Leinster, Sept 12th.

Post by big mervyn » Sun Sep 13, 2020 10:31 am

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Re: Pro 14 Final vs Leinster, Sept 12th.

Post by damianmcr » Sun Sep 13, 2020 10:44 am

Yeah seen that Merv. Gotta love Madigan for it.

Still bitterly disappointed even though we had very little chance.

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Re: Pro 14 Final vs Leinster, Sept 12th.

Post by justinr73 » Sun Sep 13, 2020 11:00 am

Caption for Herring?

therealspratt
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Re: Pro 14 Final vs Leinster, Sept 12th.

Post by therealspratt » Sun Sep 13, 2020 1:09 pm

thecrouch wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 12:12 am
Jackie Brown wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 11:57 pm
jean valjean wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 11:25 pm
I think ruddock must be questioning his future now, would he be worth a punt to try and nab? He would amd should probably go for a payday however given how Jordi et al's ireland prospects have gone.
Yeah because we need more second rate Leinster players. Coming North makes your Ireland chances worse. We have consistently the best 9 and 12 for at least two seasons, neither of them get a fair crack at international level. No player wants to come to Ulster to play for Ireland, it doesn't happen.
Ruddock is class, but honestly I'm sick of the expectation that Ulster must suckle at the teat of Leinster and happily lap up their rejects.

The whole setup of rugby in Ireland is a joke. I'd love to know what the wage bill is in D4 compared to everywhere else, yet we're all expected to abide by the same rules.
Maybe if we produced the players who could demand that sort of wage bill then we'd deserve it too. Our expenditure on players from outside our development system surely greatly exceeds Leinster, they've Lowe, Fardy, Gibson Park, Cronin and Henshaw.

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big mervyn
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Re: Pro 14 Final vs Leinster, Sept 12th.

Post by big mervyn » Sun Sep 13, 2020 3:36 pm

damianmcr wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 10:44 am
Yeah seen that Merv. Gotta love Madigan for it.

Still bitterly disappointed even though we had very little chance.
I like Mads. He is what he is regarding his abilities and limitations but I've been impressed so far by his attitude on and off the pitch. Gives an intetesting interview without the usual platitudes amd cliches.
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Re: Pro 14 Final vs Leinster, Sept 12th.

Post by lovesthehardground » Sun Sep 13, 2020 4:48 pm

Reality setting in. We are a very average team playing in a poor league with one team streets ahead of all the other dross. Anybody thinking otherwise is deluding themselves. How many first pick internationals do we have? We have a few who got capped on summer tours or as 75th minute subs but only a few currently near the required standards. No front row, maybe Henderson at lock, Coetzee at 8 and maybe Stockdale in the backs but thats it. Poor development and very poor recruitment has resulted in a current team of average players. Yes we pull together and punch above our weight from time to time but we cannot sustain that in the hope of winning trophies.
In Faddes and Carter we have two journeymen who are a waste at NIQ. We have two over the hill props who are quite frankly an embarrassment in the modern game where dynamic ball carrying and tackling is required. Jordi Murphy and Madigan are two more who are past their best and will not get near the Ireland team again. Burns at OH is not good enough. McCloskey is so limited and is a liability in defence where he either tries to hold a player up or strip the ball away, thus conceding yards in every tackle.
Last night showed the massive gulf between the two teams. Leinster's speed in defence and attack made Ulster look ponderous in almost every facet of play. Our accuracy is poor and game smarts non existent. No slowing their ball down. Silly penalties given away allowing them to relieve pressure at vital times. Not taking the points on offer in a cup final??!!
I'd rate the players out f 10 as follows
O'Sullivan 7, Herring 5, O'Toole 6, Henderson 5 (why did he start?), O'Connor 6, Rea 6, Reidy 7, Coetzee 6 ( why subbed?), Mathewson 5, Burns 4, Stockdale 6, McCloskey 5, Hume 6, Lyttle 5, Lowry 4. Subs Andrew 4, McGrath 4, Moore 4, Carter 4, Murphy 6, Timoney 6, Cooney 5, Madigan 5.
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Re: Pro 14 Final vs Leinster, Sept 12th.

Post by Jackie Brown » Sun Sep 13, 2020 4:54 pm

I think you're being harsh on Herring
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Re: Pro 14 Final vs Leinster, Sept 12th.

Post by lovesthehardground » Sun Sep 13, 2020 5:01 pm

maybe, maybe not. One of the reasons I rated him at 5 was his lack of leadership. Maybe I'm comparing him to Rory but he has been captain and is one of the senior players but he didn't step up last night........again.
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Jackie Brown
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Re: Pro 14 Final vs Leinster, Sept 12th.

Post by Jackie Brown » Sun Sep 13, 2020 5:43 pm

lovesthehardground wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 5:01 pm
maybe, maybe not. One of the reasons I rated him at 5 was his lack of leadership. Maybe I'm comparing him to Rory but he has been captain and is one of the senior players but he didn't step up last night........again.
I agree with you on last night, but he plays for Ireland on merit
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Re: Pro 14 Final vs Leinster, Sept 12th.

Post by MightyRearranger » Sun Sep 13, 2020 5:49 pm

I think the majority of those ratings are quite harsh to be honest. I would go so far as to say that playing like we did yesterday, we're a pretty good side, who just got beaten by a team who're probably the best club side in the world in a fairly hotly contested game. There are plenty of things from the game to work on (the fact we didn't kick the corners or contest their lineout when it was going so badly drove me a bit mad as an example), but there were also a lot of positive things, especially given where we were two years ago.

I think our biggest deficiencies as a team are our utter reliance on McCloskey and Coetzee as ball carriers and a lack of strength in depth. We've a few players with a big of X-factor and if they're all playing and on song I think we've a chance to beat anyone on our day. We were very close against Leinster last year, but this time Henderson was no way near match fit, Cooney (who I thought looked good off the bench) had been out of sorts since the restart and Addison is injured. Leinster have the depth to lose some of the big players without too big a drop, but we don't. I don't think there's anyone in the 23 who looked out of place at that level, but we just need one or two guys to step up to the next level and make a real difference.

I don't think he was man of the match, but also think Tom O'Toole is worthy of a mention. He's always looked handy around the park, but I've been nervous about his scrummaging. That area seems to have really kicked on though and I'm not sure Marty is ever going to get the shirt back. To be playing TH to that level at 21 is impressive and if he keep on his upward curve I think with him, EOS and a few of the hookers coming through we've the raw ingredients for what might become a fairly formidable front row.

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Re: Pro 14 Final vs Leinster, Sept 12th.

Post by lovesthehardground » Sun Sep 13, 2020 6:32 pm

I agree with you on last night, but he plays for Ireland on merit

He wont be playing for ireland this season
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Re: Pro 14 Final vs Leinster, Sept 12th.

Post by lovesthehardground » Sun Sep 13, 2020 6:40 pm

I would go so far as to say that playing like we did yesterday, we're a pretty good side - We never looked like scoring and our line speed defence is too slow.
We've a few players with a big of X-factor - who?
Leinster have the depth to lose some of the big players without too big a drop, but we don't. - Exactly what i said. Our recruitment and development has been poor.
I don't think there's anyone in the 23 who looked out of place at that level, but we just need one or two guys to step up to the next level and make a real difference. - dont understand this. If our 23 didn't look out of place who needs to step up and what is the next level??

We were beaten by 22 points yesterday and by 18 pts by the same side two weeks previously and you say we're a pretty good side?! I'd hate to see what the score would be if we we're a bad side!!
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Re: Pro 14 Final vs Leinster, Sept 12th.

Post by justinr73 » Sun Sep 13, 2020 9:09 pm

Good post Mighty.

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Re: Pro 14 Final vs Leinster, Sept 12th.

Post by MightyRearranger » Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:31 am

lovesthehardground wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 6:40 pm
We never looked like scoring and our line speed defence is too slow.
I thought we looked dangerous off front foot ball, with some nice offloading rugby, but as soon as Leinster managed to slow the ball down for a couple of phases we started going backwards. A large part of the problem is we only have two big ball carriers, so it's easy for the defences to know what's coming (c.f. the intercept).
lovesthehardground wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 6:40 pm
who?
For my money:
- Cooney was the form scrum half in Europe before the lock-down. The talk was he was going to take the Irish 9 shirt off Murray for the last two games in the six nations, he was incredibly unlucky with when the break happened.
- Henderson (though he wasn't fit yesterday)
- Coetzee
- Stockdale
- Addison - Some might not agree with me here, but I think if he can ever get and stay fully fit he'll nail down the Irish 15 shirt (which i know i a big if) he'd nail down the Irish 15 shirt. I'd take him over Larmour any day of the week.

In addition to that there are a number more there or there abouts including Baloucloune, McCloskey, Murphy and I think we're starting to have a pretty strong front row.
lovesthehardground wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 6:40 pm
dont understand this. If our 23 didn't look out of place who needs to step up and what is the next level??
I mean that everyone in the team yesterday is worth their shirt. We're missing a couple of percent extra and some strength in depth, but there wasn't anyone on the team-sheet yesterday who made me think 'oh no, we've no chance now'.
lovesthehardground wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 6:40 pm
We were beaten by 22 points yesterday and by 18 pts by the same side two weeks previously and you say we're a pretty good side?! I'd hate to see what the score would be if we we're a bad side!!
Two weeks ago we were utterly gash, on Saturday I thought the guys gave a good account of themselves. We're not the finished article and there's stuff to be improved on, but if you're yard stick for not being 'average' is being better than Leinster I'm sure it's a phrase you use quite freely. We got to the last two in the league and are in the quarter finals of Europe. We're probably quite big underdogs against Toulouse away, but think we're capable of causing an upset if we play to the same level and a few balls bounce the right way.

I've been watching Ulster a long enough and there are times I've felt utterly despondent about things, but I've been incredibly impressed by what Dan has done and although not happy with the result yesterday am fairly optimistic about our current trajectory. I've been here before (probably the last time we got to the final), but think this time it might be more sustainable; guys are starting to come through the academy and next year I'm hoping one or two from the current crop (Aaron Sexton, Tom Stewart, Callum Reid, Doak Jr etc) might make the step up.

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