Leinster v Ulster Fri Jan 8th 7:35pm KO

Talk about the men in white, and everything Ulster!!

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John_e_boy
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Re: Leinster v Ulster Fri Jan 8th 7:35pm KO

Post by John_e_boy » Sat Jan 09, 2021 12:26 am

Bogbunny wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 11:50 pm
John_e_boy wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 11:42 pm
Cap'n Grumpy wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 11:31 pm
John_e_boy wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 11:18 pm
Cap'n Grumpy wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 11:09 pm
Not the most recent of discussions, neither does it go back 50 years to when I was playing, but an interesting read nonetheless.

Apparently I'm not tho only one who considered jumping a tackle as dangerous play, and that included referees.

http://www.rugbyrefs.com/archive/index.php/t-6934.html

Also this:

https://rugbyreferee.net/2017/09/07/law ... mp-tackle/
So next time my assessor asks me why I gave certain decisions, I can qoute an internet forum quoting an internet forum whilst all agree the law doesn't allow referees to penalise their bugbear.
That's not what I was suggesting.

I was simply saying that a lot of other people, including referees were also wrong.

It's good to be part of a large group - if you look foolish, at least you are only one of many.

But I would suggest that the laws do in certain circumstances allow the referee to penalise their bugbear - the bugbear may not be illegal in itself, but if the referee deems it to be dangerous, he should penalise it.

Setting aside the specifics of "jumping into a tackle", if you saw a player doing "something" which you considered dangerous, would you not penalise that?

What I am suggesting is that over the years, things have changed in what is considered dangerous. 40-50 years ago, jumping into a tackle was considered dangerous as it was considered that the tackler could easily end up with a mouthful of studs through no fault of his own.

I would point out that many years ago, players did tackle much lower, so there was always a risk of chewing studs. The old, "tackle round the hips and drop to the ankles" technique was in vogue for quite a time on the principle that the tackled player could not run with his both legs pinned. In those days too the tackled player had to release the ball immediately - no setting it back for teammates etc. The laws of the breakdown have evolved over the years too.

For all I know, they may well be the same as they were back then, but the interpretation is definitely much different.
Let's be clear and simple. What you've written is about personal interpretation, safety standards, evolution of the game etc but it's just an opinion.

As a ref, I'm not allowed an opinion. I must use the laws as my absolute basis whilst allowing room for when and how I apply those laws.

The 2 things you mentioned - Gibson-Park ducking into contact and a ball carrier jumping into contact are not outlawed in our game. So I can't make up tom kite as I go along.

They are great discussion points, but they are not (yet?) punishable.
Jumping into a tackle has been penalised in lots of matches I have played in and watched even up to English Championship level. It may not be in the laws?, but it does get whistled!
Conjecture.

Plus all referees make mistakes.

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Re: Leinster v Ulster Fri Jan 8th 7:35pm KO

Post by John_e_boy » Sat Jan 09, 2021 12:33 am

Cap'n Grumpy wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 11:31 pm
John_e_boy wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 11:18 pm
Cap'n Grumpy wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 11:09 pm
Not the most recent of discussions, neither does it go back 50 years to when I was playing, but an interesting read nonetheless.

Apparently I'm not tho only one who considered jumping a tackle as dangerous play, and that included referees.

http://www.rugbyrefs.com/archive/index.php/t-6934.html

Also this:

https://rugbyreferee.net/2017/09/07/law ... mp-tackle/
So next time my assessor asks me why I gave certain decisions, I can qoute an internet forum quoting an internet forum whilst all agree the law doesn't allow referees to penalise their bugbear.
That's not what I was suggesting.

I was simply saying that a lot of other people, including referees were also wrong.

It's good to be part of a large group - if you look foolish, at least you are only one of many.

But I would suggest that the laws do in certain circumstances allow the referee to penalise their bugbear - the bugbear may not be illegal in itself, but if the referee deems it to be dangerous, he should penalise it.

Setting aside the specifics of "jumping into a tackle", if you saw a player doing "something" which you considered dangerous, would you not penalise that?

What I am suggesting is that over the years, things have changed in what is considered dangerous. 40-50 years ago, jumping into a tackle was considered dangerous as it was considered that the tackler could easily end up with a mouthful of studs through no fault of his own.

I would point out that many years ago, players did tackle much lower, so there was always a risk of chewing studs. The old, "tackle round the hips and drop to the ankles" technique was in vogue for quite a time on the principle that the tackled player could not run with his both legs pinned. In those days too the tackled player had to release the ball immediately - no setting it back for teammates etc. The laws of the breakdown have evolved over the years too.

For all I know, they may well be the same as they were back then, but the interpretation is definitely much different.

Again I'll try interject some reality. The bulk of what you write is an opinion that is not supported in law. It's a fair opinion and for what it's worth, I agree to some extent with it.

But come Saturday or Sunday, when I'm standing in middle of the pitch with my whistle: opinions,conjecture, bugbears et al have no place. I'm then an arbiter of the laws.

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Re: Leinster v Ulster Fri Jan 8th 7:35pm KO

Post by Cap'n Grumpy » Sat Jan 09, 2021 12:35 am

Coming from someone who makes mistakes, how can I believe that?
Sadly the days of people using proper English are went

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Re: Leinster v Ulster Fri Jan 8th 7:35pm KO

Post by John_e_boy » Sat Jan 09, 2021 12:36 am

Cap'n Grumpy wrote:
Sat Jan 09, 2021 12:35 am
Coming from someone who makes mistakes, how can I believe that?
By taking up the whistle yourself?

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Re: Leinster v Ulster Fri Jan 8th 7:35pm KO

Post by justinr73 » Sat Jan 09, 2021 12:36 am

John_e_boy wrote:
Sat Jan 09, 2021 12:33 am
Cap'n Grumpy wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 11:31 pm
John_e_boy wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 11:18 pm
Cap'n Grumpy wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 11:09 pm
Not the most recent of discussions, neither does it go back 50 years to when I was playing, but an interesting read nonetheless.

Apparently I'm not tho only one who considered jumping a tackle as dangerous play, and that included referees.

http://www.rugbyrefs.com/archive/index.php/t-6934.html

Also this:

https://rugbyreferee.net/2017/09/07/law ... mp-tackle/
So next time my assessor asks me why I gave certain decisions, I can qoute an internet forum quoting an internet forum whilst all agree the law doesn't allow referees to penalise their bugbear.
That's not what I was suggesting.

I was simply saying that a lot of other people, including referees were also wrong.

It's good to be part of a large group - if you look foolish, at least you are only one of many.

But I would suggest that the laws do in certain circumstances allow the referee to penalise their bugbear - the bugbear may not be illegal in itself, but if the referee deems it to be dangerous, he should penalise it.

Setting aside the specifics of "jumping into a tackle", if you saw a player doing "something" which you considered dangerous, would you not penalise that?

What I am suggesting is that over the years, things have changed in what is considered dangerous. 40-50 years ago, jumping into a tackle was considered dangerous as it was considered that the tackler could easily end up with a mouthful of studs through no fault of his own.

I would point out that many years ago, players did tackle much lower, so there was always a risk of chewing studs. The old, "tackle round the hips and drop to the ankles" technique was in vogue for quite a time on the principle that the tackled player could not run with his both legs pinned. In those days too the tackled player had to release the ball immediately - no setting it back for teammates etc. The laws of the breakdown have evolved over the years too.

For all I know, they may well be the same as they were back then, but the interpretation is definitely much different.

Again I'll try interject some reality. The bulk of what you write is an opinion that is not supported in law. It's a fair opinion and for what it's worth, I agree to some extent with it.

But come Saturday or Sunday, when I'm standing in middle of the pitch with my whistle: opinions,conjecture, bugbears et al have no place. I'm then an arbiter of the laws.
But you’ll still be five foot tall.

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Re: Leinster v Ulster Fri Jan 8th 7:35pm KO

Post by Cap'n Grumpy » Sat Jan 09, 2021 12:41 am

John_e_boy wrote:
Sat Jan 09, 2021 12:36 am
Cap'n Grumpy wrote:
Sat Jan 09, 2021 12:35 am
Coming from someone who makes mistakes, how can I believe that?
By taking up the whistle yourself?
I could simply answer that by saying, I did that many years ago for the round ball game after I had a play-ending injury.

Having suffered a double fracture of the spine since then and sometimes barely able to walk 50m some days, I doubt if any rugby club would relish me doing so.

On the other hand, I could just be honest and say that simply taking up the whistle would not in any way make what you say any more believable.

BTW, congratulations on the success of your sarcasm bypass surgery. Good to know that Covid isn't stopping everything.
Sadly the days of people using proper English are went

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Re: Leinster v Ulster Fri Jan 8th 7:35pm KO

Post by Cap'n Grumpy » Sat Jan 09, 2021 12:44 am

justinr73 wrote:
Sat Jan 09, 2021 12:36 am
But you’ll still be five foot tall.
Harsh


Very funny, but harsh. :lol:


And I say that as a former ref in another sport who would still find that funny if it was said about me.





It wasn't you that did say that about me many years ago, was it? :scratch: :evil:
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Re: Leinster v Ulster Fri Jan 8th 7:35pm KO

Post by Cap'n Grumpy » Sat Jan 09, 2021 12:51 am

John_e_boy wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 9:36 pm
Referee and TMO tonight: excellent in my humble one.
Your humble what?

Opinion?

Shirley nat if you are applying the same criteria they are?

And you wouldn't be applying different criteria now would ya?

Just because yer not standing in the park on a Sunday with a whistle ... ?
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Re: Leinster v Ulster Fri Jan 8th 7:35pm KO

Post by Cap'n Grumpy » Sat Jan 09, 2021 12:52 am

I'm gettin bored again ....
Sadly the days of people using proper English are went

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Re: Leinster v Ulster Fri Jan 8th 7:35pm KO

Post by Bogbunny » Sat Jan 09, 2021 12:54 am

John_e_boy wrote:
Sat Jan 09, 2021 12:26 am
Bogbunny wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 11:50 pm
John_e_boy wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 11:42 pm
Cap'n Grumpy wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 11:31 pm
John_e_boy wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 11:18 pm


So next time my assessor asks me why I gave certain decisions, I can qoute an internet forum quoting an internet forum whilst all agree the law doesn't allow referees to penalise their bugbear.
That's not what I was suggesting.

I was simply saying that a lot of other people, including referees were also wrong.

It's good to be part of a large group - if you look foolish, at least you are only one of many.

But I would suggest that the laws do in certain circumstances allow the referee to penalise their bugbear - the bugbear may not be illegal in itself, but if the referee deems it to be dangerous, he should penalise it.

Setting aside the specifics of "jumping into a tackle", if you saw a player doing "something" which you considered dangerous, would you not penalise that?

What I am suggesting is that over the years, things have changed in what is considered dangerous. 40-50 years ago, jumping into a tackle was considered dangerous as it was considered that the tackler could easily end up with a mouthful of studs through no fault of his own.

I would point out that many years ago, players did tackle much lower, so there was always a risk of chewing studs. The old, "tackle round the hips and drop to the ankles" technique was in vogue for quite a time on the principle that the tackled player could not run with his both legs pinned. In those days too the tackled player had to release the ball immediately - no setting it back for teammates etc. The laws of the breakdown have evolved over the years too.

For all I know, they may well be the same as they were back then, but the interpretation is definitely much different.
Let's be clear and simple. What you've written is about personal interpretation, safety standards, evolution of the game etc but it's just an opinion.

As a ref, I'm not allowed an opinion. I must use the laws as my absolute basis whilst allowing room for when and how I apply those laws.

The 2 things you mentioned - Gibson-Park ducking into contact and a ball carrier jumping into contact are not outlawed in our game. So I can't make up tom kite as I go along.

They are great discussion points, but they are not (yet?) punishable.
Jumping into a tackle has been penalised in lots of matches I have played in and watched even up to English Championship level. It may not be in the laws?, but it does get whistled!
Conjecture.

Plus all referees make mistakes.
Observation/Media Commentary/ Been on foundation reffing course >yahoo , player & devotee for 50 years +
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Re: Leinster v Ulster Fri Jan 8th 7:35pm KO

Post by BR » Sat Jan 09, 2021 1:13 am

John_e_boy wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:43 pm
Cap'n Grumpy wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:35 pm
John_e_boy wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:22 pm
Cap'n Grumpy wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:18 pm
When I played, both of those were offences and were strictly applied.

The first was deemed to be illegally preventing a fair tackle, the second was dangerous play towards a tackler.

I confess I never read the laws, but that was drummed into us even at school and whether in the laws or not was certainly an interpretation by referees, probably before you were born.
Sorry aul han, if those things were reffed as being illegal, shoot the ref. And the teacher. And the coach.
Well the teacher was the coach and he went on to coach Ulster, so thought he knew something about the game.

He wasn't the only one though as anytime someone tried to do anything more than step a tackle, they were penalised by any number of refs.

If we'd shot them all,I doubt anyone would have wanted to pick up a whistle.
I don't want to be argumentative, but speaking as a ref, the things you mentioned have never been and still aren't an offence under the laws of rugby.

Coaches, God love them but we're talking about why the ref tonight didn't blow up for infringements - the answer is they aren't infringements.
Jumping a tackle was always dangerous play!
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Re: Leinster v Ulster Fri Jan 8th 7:35pm KO

Post by Cap'n Grumpy » Sat Jan 09, 2021 1:24 am

BR wrote:
Sat Jan 09, 2021 1:13 am
Jumping a tackle was always dangerous play!
but not an offence under the laws of rugby.

Save yourself while you can BR

I took one for the team by making such a foolish observation.

No need for you to suffer similar fate, now you that such an opinion is sacrilege. :shock:
Last edited by Cap'n Grumpy on Sat Jan 09, 2021 1:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Leinster v Ulster Fri Jan 8th 7:35pm KO

Post by BR » Sat Jan 09, 2021 1:28 am

Also when lifting at lineouts was eventually made legal, they specifically said that lifters had the responsibility to bring their teammates safely to earth. Should have been a penalty to Ulster in the first half.
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Re: Leinster v Ulster Fri Jan 8th 7:35pm KO

Post by Cap'n Grumpy » Sat Jan 09, 2021 1:29 am

BR wrote:
Sat Jan 09, 2021 1:28 am
Also when lifting at lineouts was eventually made legal, they specifically said that lifters had the responsibility to bring their teammates safely to earth. Should have been a penalty to Ulster in the first half.
He landed on his head, so was safe enough.

No penalty

nothing to see her

move along.
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Re: Leinster v Ulster Fri Jan 8th 7:35pm KO

Post by BR » Sat Jan 09, 2021 1:52 am

John_e_boy wrote:
Sat Jan 09, 2021 12:33 am

But come Saturday or Sunday, when I'm standing in middle of the pitch with my whistle: opinions,conjecture, bugbears et al have no place. I'm then an arbiter of the laws.
But therein lies the problem - you are responsible for applying the laws (and additional memos, appendices and frameworks) as currently interpreted by the IRB; not the laws as actually written. Were you to do the latter, the players would not know what to do.
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