Leinster v Ulster Fri Jan 8th 7:35pm KO

Talk about the men in white, and everything Ulster!!

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Re: Leinster v Ulster Fri Jan 8th 7:35pm KO

Post by Alister Scott » Sat Jan 09, 2021 2:26 am

John_e_boy wrote:
Sat Jan 09, 2021 12:33 am

But come Saturday or Sunday, when I'm standing in middle of the pitch with my whistle: opinions,conjecture, bugbears et al have no place. I'm then an arbiter of the laws.
I'll have you know that I have as much right to a place there as anyone ... or even any opinion, conjecture or bugbear (Ursa cimex), Mr Ludex rex

Al
BR wrote:
Sat Jan 09, 2021 1:52 am
But therein lies the problem - you are responsible for applying the laws (and additional memos, appendices and frameworks) as currently interpreted by the IRB; not the laws as actually written. Were you to do the latter, the players would not know what to do.
Now you're just being silly.

He's responsible for applying the laws (and additional memos, appendices and frameworks) as currently interpreted by World Rugby; not the laws as actually written.

Is it any wonder Arbiters like Boy John don't get the respect they deserve if everyone is so out of date?

Do try to keep up with the times.

Your point is well made though - but it is only an opinion, and arbiters only deal in facts and laws - however they are written ... in English ... or French ... or maybe even Latin.

And that's a fact ... in my opinion. :thumleft:

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Re: Leinster v Ulster Fri Jan 8th 7:35pm KO

Post by rumncoke » Sat Jan 09, 2021 4:12 am

Meanwhile back at the ranch ---

Leinster won the Leinster way --wait long enough and the penalties will come --- kick them into the 22 -- play 3 man pick and go ( fringe support players blocking would tacklers ) suck the opposition defence in to the ruck and go wide if you have to .

Defensively play marginally offside to stop any forward or back breaking the gain line

Ulster played well in the first half kept Leinster in their own half of the pitch for most of it and the scoreline showed the result . Second half two quick penalties and leinster go for the corner and score to take the lead and similar quick double penalty into the 22 and they are 7 points clear -- a two penalty advantage to Leinster with the best defence in the Pro 14 (12 ) --see above -- again Leinster wait for the penalties to get in the red zone -- while the team they are playing run up against a brick wall trying to get out of their own half .

It's leinster rugby -- effective because they have the back row and front row to do it , the latter play pick and go and the back row provide the defence .
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Re: Leinster v Ulster Fri Jan 8th 7:35pm KO

Post by Marco » Sat Jan 09, 2021 8:12 am

Slept on it, reflections:

1. Forwards held up well, on balance +/- parity, pity Moore went off
2. Jordi getting well deserved praise, but a shout for Greg Jones, unheralded but did nothing wrong and much right
3. Agree with comments about Coetzee, needed him to get the heed down and drive like feck more
4. Burns poor, needed a kicker and he had the opportunity to impress Farrell, to me was abject, the kicks straight to the winger for a mark, tripping over his own player and being bombarded into touch, could feel Dan’s rage from my living room...
5. ...Madigan coming on with immediate energy and urgency to underline above, maybe the temperature simply froze people!
6. Criminal to allow Henshaw try, the forwards did their bit, as Jackman said in commentary, they made five tackles each and Cooney and Faddes couldn’t make one between them
7. Third quarter inexplicable, we’ve been there so many times, wtf goes on in their heads, it’s like they do the opposite of what they know what to do, go figure, can’t be fatigue straight after HT?? Leave out third quarter score of 12-0 to Leinster, and the score was balanced at 12-12, job done at that!
8. Like the Gloucester game, played through yellow card with more points than the other team, how does that happen, it’s like a chip in the brain kicks in that just comes out again later.
9. Extremely frustrated, especially with the break now and strong signals that Covid could cancel the French playing Europe, too much time to dwell on it,
10. McIlroy, extraordinary maturity, nous, awareness and skill for a 20 year old, watch that kid.

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Re: Leinster v Ulster Fri Jan 8th 7:35pm KO

Post by Marco » Sat Jan 09, 2021 8:17 am

Just on my point 1. about the forwards doing ok, I omitted the abysmal defence of the line out maul, but stupid penalties allowed the line outs in the first place, nevertheless poor given that it was an issue against Gloucester as well so presumably was coached all week!

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Re: Leinster v Ulster Fri Jan 8th 7:35pm KO

Post by rumncoke » Sat Jan 09, 2021 9:43 am

Leinster played the Leinster game-- wait for the penalties -- get into the 22 and play 3 man lift and go ( the two supporting fringe players blocking would be tacklers ensuring inching over the gain line ) suck the defence into a ruck area remove the cover defence -- one on one in space and score -- short line out on the 5 metre and pile every one into the drive for the line.

Ulster played well in the first half , avoided penalties to leinster in the Ulster half and denied access to their 22

Two quick penalties early in the second half and Leinster have a 5 metre line out -- score 12 -9 a quick repeat of the above except the defence sucked into the ruck and the sent wide to the backs facing one in space close to the line.

and Ulster are then chasing the game all leinster have to do is keep Ulster in their own half of the pitch chasing the game.

You don't give penalties to leinster is the moral of the story.
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Re: Leinster v Ulster Fri Jan 8th 7:35pm KO

Post by rumncoke » Sat Jan 09, 2021 10:09 am

Captain you are right in both points

You were told not to duck --because a high tackle was one above the shoulders i.e. a straight arm to the neck -- duck and eat a forearm well that was your fault and you were responsible for your own safety -- now run straight at the opposition and if your hit in the head its the guy you hit gets sent off.

jumping -- well that idea went out after Telfer sent a GAA Irish winger into next week -- the only place a player jumping had immunity was in the line out in those days -- the catcher was given immunity by the fact he couldn't be tackled with out the ball or if he shouted mark when he did with both feet on the ground.

Now the jumper is given immunity despite studs front - and knees up and flying knees first over the back of somebody's head

The concept of being responsible for you own safety has been lost .

The law makers have --f-cked up but can't admit it and have by giving the ball carrier and jumper immunity made the game more dangerous .

When i was playing, might have been a a bit before you Captain with maybe an overlap,head injuries were few and far between and usually due to players getting their head in front of the ball carriers legs -- now there is hardly a game without a head injury -- Why because --players are allowed to run AT the opposition without trying to hand off -- duck their shoulders, use their forearms and raise their knees -- players don't have to learn how to pass if they are big and fat and have two equally big and fat player bound to them or running so close they impede the tackle.
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Re: Leinster v Ulster Fri Jan 8th 7:35pm KO

Post by Dave » Sat Jan 09, 2021 10:26 am

John_e_boy wrote:
Bogbunny wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 11:50 pm
John_e_boy wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 11:42 pm
Cap'n Grumpy wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 11:31 pm
John_e_boy wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 11:18 pm
So next time my assessor asks me why I gave certain decisions, I can qoute an internet forum quoting an internet forum whilst all agree the law doesn't allow referees to penalise their bugbear.
That's not what I was suggesting.

I was simply saying that a lot of other people, including referees were also wrong.

It's good to be part of a large group - if you look foolish, at least you are only one of many.

But I would suggest that the laws do in certain circumstances allow the referee to penalise their bugbear - the bugbear may not be illegal in itself, but if the referee deems it to be dangerous, he should penalise it.

Setting aside the specifics of "jumping into a tackle", if you saw a player doing "something" which you considered dangerous, would you not penalise that?

What I am suggesting is that over the years, things have changed in what is considered dangerous. 40-50 years ago, jumping into a tackle was considered dangerous as it was considered that the tackler could easily end up with a mouthful of studs through no fault of his own.

I would point out that many years ago, players did tackle much lower, so there was always a risk of chewing studs. The old, "tackle round the hips and drop to the ankles" technique was in vogue for quite a time on the principle that the tackled player could not run with his both legs pinned. In those days too the tackled player had to release the ball immediately - no setting it back for teammates etc. The laws of the breakdown have evolved over the years too.

For all I know, they may well be the same as they were back then, but the interpretation is definitely much different.
Let's be clear and simple. What you've written is about personal interpretation, safety standards, evolution of the game etc but it's just an opinion.

As a ref, I'm not allowed an opinion. I must use the laws as my absolute basis whilst allowing room for when and how I apply those laws.

The 2 things you mentioned - Gibson-Park ducking into contact and a ball carrier jumping into contact are not outlawed in our game. So I can't make up tom kite as I go along.

They are great discussion points, but they are not (yet?) punishable.
Jumping into a tackle has been penalised in lots of matches I have played in and watched even up to English Championship level. It may not be in the laws?, but it does get whistled!
Conjecture.

Plus all referees make mistakes.
Sustained.
I have my own tv channel, what have you got?

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Re: Leinster v Ulster Fri Jan 8th 7:35pm KO

Post by rumncoke » Sat Jan 09, 2021 10:58 am

When was the last time you saw a player being sent off for failure to push straight ie Boring -- which in the laws of the game is described as dangerous play .

The law makers and those who apply them have made the game more dangerous by the changes they have made and their failure to apply the Laws and the basic concept a player is responsible for his own safety provided the those who they play against don't break the laws of the game.

about 2/3 of all high tackles, as now defined and penalised ,are not dangerous or the source of head injury --arms on or over the shoulder, or are due to players running at the tackler and failing to attempt a hand off because he is using a leading shoulder or forearm at the tacklers face to protect his head -- in those circumstances who is actually playing dangerously -- given most head injuries are suffered by would be tacklers rather than the ball carrier.
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Re: Leinster v Ulster Fri Jan 8th 7:35pm KO

Post by skiboo » Sat Jan 09, 2021 12:46 pm

Watched match last night and had some time for reflection.
Thought ref had a good game and while I could gurn about some decisions I am certain Leinster supporters could do the same. TMO was perhaps a bit hard on Ulster but ref produced the balance and more could not be demanded.
Marcell was unfortunate but I think he was being played and it tempered his play for most of the game.
Ulster played well but were beaten by a team which could have been called Ireland. The forwards held up and more and while there are some on this site would be critical of Carter his presence has diluted the line out venerability we had in previous years. However for me there were two forwards who came under the radar and played well Warwick and Jones while I think Murphy had his best game ever for Ulster and was my Ulster player of match.
The young backs played well and the encouraging thing for me is they will get better. McIlroy is a gem and we have been told by all and sundry within the Ulster management system the quality of the "kids" coming through is second to none and while I would like to see more forwards coming out of the system we cannot introduce new faces in every match.

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Re: Leinster v Ulster Fri Jan 8th 7:35pm KO

Post by for dog and ulcer » Sat Jan 09, 2021 2:07 pm

Marco wrote:
Sat Jan 09, 2021 8:12 am
Slept on it, reflections:

1. Forwards held up well, on balance +/- parity, pity Moore went off
2. Jordi getting well deserved praise, but a shout for Greg Jones, unheralded but did nothing wrong and much right
3. Agree with comments about Coetzee, needed him to get the heed down and drive like feck more
4. Burns poor, needed a kicker and he had the opportunity to impress Farrell, to me was abject, the kicks straight to the winger for a mark, tripping over his own player and being bombarded into touch, could feel Dan’s rage from my living room...
5. ...Madigan coming on with immediate energy and urgency to underline above, maybe the temperature simply froze people!
6. Criminal to allow Henshaw try, the forwards did their bit, as Jackman said in commentary, they made five tackles each and Cooney and Faddes couldn’t make one between them
7. Third quarter inexplicable, we’ve been there so many times, wtf goes on in their heads, it’s like they do the opposite of what they know what to do, go figure, can’t be fatigue straight after HT?? Leave out third quarter score of 12-0 to Leinster, and the score was balanced at 12-12, job done at that!
8. Like the Gloucester game, played through yellow card with more points than the other team, how does that happen, it’s like a chip in the brain kicks in that just comes out again later.
9. Extremely frustrated, especially with the break now and strong signals that Covid could cancel the French playing Europe, too much time to dwell on it,
10. McIlroy, extraordinary maturity, nous, awareness and skill for a 20 year old, watch that kid.
Very much as I saw it with the addition of endless wasteful box kicking from Cooney and for once a good refereeing performance.

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Re: Leinster v Ulster Fri Jan 8th 7:35pm KO

Post by BR » Sat Jan 09, 2021 7:18 pm

:D
Alister Scott wrote:
Sat Jan 09, 2021 2:26 am

BR wrote:
Sat Jan 09, 2021 1:52 am
But therein lies the problem - you are responsible for applying the laws (and additional memos, appendices and frameworks) as currently interpreted by the IRB; not the laws as actually written. Were you to do the latter, the players would not know what to do.
Now you're just being silly.

He's responsible for applying the laws (and additional memos, appendices and frameworks) as currently interpreted by World Rugby; not the laws as actually written.
I've only just got used to them dropping the 'F' in IRB.
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Re: Leinster v Ulster Fri Jan 8th 7:35pm KO

Post by flatpass » Sat Jan 09, 2021 7:35 pm

Am I the only one who gets cheesed off with the number of times the coverage misses re-starts whether by kick, scrum or line-out because the camera is focused on an individual player or because one of the commentating team gives some analysis of a move? I pay my sub to watch live rugby, not to listen to some ‘expert’ prattle on about something that can easily wait until half-time. Show us the match as it happens, ALL of the match!

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Re: Leinster v Ulster Fri Jan 8th 7:35pm KO

Post by kingofthehill » Sat Jan 09, 2021 8:52 pm

for dog and ulcer wrote:
Sat Jan 09, 2021 2:07 pm
Marco wrote:
Sat Jan 09, 2021 8:12 am
Slept on it, reflections:

1. Forwards held up well, on balance +/- parity, pity Moore went off
2. Jordi getting well deserved praise, but a shout for Greg Jones, unheralded but did nothing wrong and much right
3. Agree with comments about Coetzee, needed him to get the heed down and drive like feck more
4. Burns poor, needed a kicker and he had the opportunity to impress Farrell, to me was abject, the kicks straight to the winger for a mark, tripping over his own player and being bombarded into touch, could feel Dan’s rage from my living room...
5. ...Madigan coming on with immediate energy and urgency to underline above, maybe the temperature simply froze people!
6. Criminal to allow Henshaw try, the forwards did their bit, as Jackman said in commentary, they made five tackles each and Cooney and Faddes couldn’t make one between them
7. Third quarter inexplicable, we’ve been there so many times, wtf goes on in their heads, it’s like they do the opposite of what they know what to do, go figure, can’t be fatigue straight after HT?? Leave out third quarter score of 12-0 to Leinster, and the score was balanced at 12-12, job done at that!
8. Like the Gloucester game, played through yellow card with more points than the other team, how does that happen, it’s like a chip in the brain kicks in that just comes out again later.
9. Extremely frustrated, especially with the break now and strong signals that Covid could cancel the French playing Europe, too much time to dwell on it,
10. McIlroy, extraordinary maturity, nous, awareness and skill for a 20 year old, watch that kid.
Very much as I saw it with the addition of endless wasteful box kicking from Cooney and for once a good refereeing performance.

As I said in another post.

Regarding Cooney’s kicking, SHs don’t box kick to contest as much any more because teams are wise to it. They are shepherding much better and the actual return of box kicking is in favour of opposition now.
Box kicks tend to go longer and teams look for a tackle and organised defence from it.
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Re: Leinster v Ulster Fri Jan 8th 7:35pm KO

Post by justinr73 » Sun Jan 10, 2021 11:24 am

flatpass wrote:
Sat Jan 09, 2021 7:35 pm
Am I the only one who gets cheesed off with the number of times the coverage misses re-starts whether by kick, scrum or line-out because the camera is focused on an individual player or because one of the commentating team gives some analysis of a move? I pay my sub to watch live rugby, not to listen to some ‘expert’ prattle on about something that can easily wait until half-time. Show us the match as it happens, ALL of the match!
You’re not. It’s pi$h-poor production.

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Re: Leinster v Ulster Fri Jan 8th 7:35pm KO

Post by jean valjean » Sun Jan 10, 2021 3:03 pm

Does the rds suffer from not having the main camera positioned on the halfway line? The team defending on the right always seem to be offside as the lines on the pitch appear slanted. Am sure it is an issue for the TMO as well when judging offside / being in front of kicker.

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