Ulster v Leinster Sat Mar 6th 7:35pm KO

Talk about the men in white, and everything Ulster!!

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rumncoke
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Re: Ulster v Leinster Sat Mar 6th 7:35pm KO

Post by rumncoke » Tue Mar 09, 2021 11:14 am

Everyone is hyping the Leinster Forwards performance compared to that of Ulster--

Forgetting --

Firstly the fact that Leinter were continually fouling within the 5 metre area

Using a FLYING Wedge pre binding or latching ( as described on the Munsterfans site ) or Cavalry Charge an advance by a group of players from a tap penalty.

Blocking tacklers

coming in from the side

and over the top

Playing or taking out players beyond the tackle before the ruck had formed

Holding Opposition players who were not part of the ruck

My question is if referees would penalise players for such actions when play is between the two 22s Can one referee explain why an attacking team is permitted to act in that way within the 5 metre line

Consider the dummy run by McClosey -- the run had to be timed and aimed at the inside shoulder of Ruddock who performed a semi tackle with his inside arm -- a try disallowed while vitually every try scored in the 5 metre area was scored or made after pre binding or a cavalry charge where the ball carrier was protected by those around him rather than assisted ( an assist would occur after the tackle not before)

Another forgotten factor is that for 2/3rds of the match Leinster were playing 8 forwards against 7 and one of that 7 had previously left the field due to a shoulder weakness of course in those circumstance the team with 8 players will dominate because of numerically advantage and the fact the pack of 7 can not afford to play intensely for fear of losing another player to sin bin.

Allowance should also be made for the fact Leinster scored 5 trys all of which were based on prosession inside the Ulster 5 metre area thus Ulster could have been defending the try line with 7 forwards for between 15 - 20 minutes of the match sometimes with only 13 playerers facing 15 .

Do those in charge of the laws believe that the public want to watch about 20 minutes of 8 fat man charge at the try line from three metres -- ask any person who watched that watch for the memorable monents of the game -- I expect they would say the two Balccoune trys and the break made by the leinster back -- ask them to describe one try scored by Leinster few will recall any detail
other than 8 fat men charging at the line until x scored under a pile of bodies -- but nobody actually saw him score the try in real time.

The manner in which play is being refereed within the 5 metre line allowing pre binding and blocking by the attacking team has been the death of open rugby because all a team has to do is be patient wait for the penalty and kick for the corner .
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Dave
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Re: Ulster v Leinster Sat Mar 6th 7:35pm KO

Post by Dave » Tue Mar 09, 2021 12:50 pm

Bobbievee wrote:Genuine question.
In these Dublin schools, are GAA sports and rugby union enjoyed equally, or is it an either/ or situation.
And what is the current ( non covid) situation in Northern Ireland schools.?
I had some early schooling in Dublin. I didn't enjoy it. When I moved up norf I played mostly rugby and football with some GAA. I really enjoyed playing football and still play when I can. Nothing serious (hard to believe), 5 aside and some outdoor on 3G surfaces etc. I definitely did not enjoy GAA as much. Rugby is the greatest game I've ever played. I loved it. A dodgy hip precluded a meaningful amateur career.

I hope that helps.
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Re: Ulster v Leinster Sat Mar 6th 7:35pm KO

Post by Sue Dename » Tue Mar 09, 2021 3:53 pm

Dave wrote:
Mon Mar 08, 2021 9:55 pm
Get McIlroy to chip in.

McIlroy can't putt right now, never mind chip in.

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Re: Ulster v Leinster Sat Mar 6th 7:35pm KO

Post by Sue Dename » Tue Mar 09, 2021 4:42 pm

If Leinster have eight (or so) fee paying feeder schools delivering quality players to their academy fair play to them. It works. These students realise if their good enough its the foundations of a career playing professional sport. They aren't going to get that with any other sport in Ireland.
The schools identify the talent and focus their minds on it. Its not to dissimilar to the mind set of young Kiwi's who want to be All Blacks, these students want to play for Leinster and Ireland, that's their goal.

Move North and that was a similar mindset to what existed here (pre professional era). Enter Davy Wells into the coaching role at Methodist College and that all changed. Our largest feeder school was indoctrinated to focus on one thing and one thing only, winning the Schools Cup. From first hand experience I know the Method 1st XV were told their rugby career had peaked when they won the schools cup. Nothing else mattered.
This mindset swept through our Grammar Schools like a disease. Other schools (BGS) began playing soccer etc.
The evidence of this cascades from the demise of Collegians RFC, North of Ireland and to a lesser extent Instonians.
Until we can get our schools focused on delivering quality players to an Academy that can identify talent and develop it (not letting them go NZ !) we are going nowhere fast.

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Re: Ulster v Leinster Sat Mar 6th 7:35pm KO

Post by Bayern » Tue Mar 09, 2021 4:49 pm

Sue Dename wrote:
Tue Mar 09, 2021 4:42 pm
If Leinster have eight (or so) fee paying feeder schools delivering quality players to their academy fair play to them. It works. These students realise if their good enough its the foundations of a career playing professional sport. They aren't going to get that with any other sport in Ireland.
The schools identify the talent and focus their minds on it. Its not to dissimilar to the mind set of young Kiwi's who want to be All Blacks, these students want to play for Leinster and Ireland, that's their goal.

Move North and that was a similar mindset to what existed here (pre professional era). Enter Davy Wells into the coaching role at Methodist College and that all changed. Our largest feeder school was indoctrinated to focus on one thing and one thing only, winning the Schools Cup. From first hand experience I know the Method 1st XV were told their rugby career had peaked when they won the schools cup. Nothing else mattered.
This mindset swept through our Grammar Schools like a disease. Other schools (BGS) began playing soccer etc.
The evidence of this cascades from the demise of Collegians RFC, North of Ireland and to a lesser extent Instonians.
Until we can get our schools focused on delivering quality players to an Academy that can identify talent and develop it (not letting them go NZ !) we are going nowhere fast.
The focus on winning the schools cup is huge in leinster.

And there are two main fee paying schools who deliver quality players to the academy on a consistent basis this is supplemented by some other schools but not as consistently and the club game players such as Furlong and Sean O'Brien.

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Re: Ulster v Leinster Sat Mar 6th 7:35pm KO

Post by Sue Dename » Tue Mar 09, 2021 4:52 pm

Bayern wrote:
Tue Mar 09, 2021 4:49 pm
Sue Dename wrote:
Tue Mar 09, 2021 4:42 pm
If Leinster have eight (or so) fee paying feeder schools delivering quality players to their academy fair play to them. It works. These students realise if their good enough its the foundations of a career playing professional sport. They aren't going to get that with any other sport in Ireland.
The schools identify the talent and focus their minds on it. Its not to dissimilar to the mind set of young Kiwi's who want to be All Blacks, these students want to play for Leinster and Ireland, that's their goal.

Move North and that was a similar mindset to what existed here (pre professional era). Enter Davy Wells into the coaching role at Methodist College and that all changed. Our largest feeder school was indoctrinated to focus on one thing and one thing only, winning the Schools Cup. From first hand experience I know the Method 1st XV were told their rugby career had peaked when they won the schools cup. Nothing else mattered.
This mindset swept through our Grammar Schools like a disease. Other schools (BGS) began playing soccer etc.
The evidence of this cascades from the demise of Collegians RFC, North of Ireland and to a lesser extent Instonians.
Until we can get our schools focused on delivering quality players to an Academy that can identify talent and develop it (not letting them go NZ !) we are going nowhere fast.
The focus on winning the schools cup is huge in leinster.

There is no disputing that, but their focus goes well beyond winning the Schools cup, ours doesn't.

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Re: Ulster v Leinster Sat Mar 6th 7:35pm KO

Post by Hans Indaruck » Tue Mar 09, 2021 5:23 pm

I think it is somewhat disingenuous to label Methody and Davy Wells with that glass ceiling mindset.
I too had the privilege of being coached by Davy and his primary goal was getting the best from each individual. Of course the School’s Cup was a major focus (just beneath beating Inst.!!) but you have to remember that there was not the same feeder system into the Ulster set up as there is now. Schools fed into clubs and they in turn fed into the Junior Ulster and Ulster Development set up - but it was all very limited and hit and miss!
It’s only in the past 15 years or so that Ulster and schools gelled better and schools seeing the benefit of bringing in professional coaches and trainers etc.
There is no doubt we are still playing ‘catch-up’!
Last edited by Hans Indaruck on Wed Mar 10, 2021 1:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ulster v Leinster Sat Mar 6th 7:35pm KO

Post by Cap'n Grumpy » Tue Mar 09, 2021 5:39 pm

Davy took over the Methody 1st XV around 1973/74, long before the professional era, and while a large chunk of Methody's student's left school annually to go to university in England, Scotland etc. Of course some stayed and played for club and university sides, but it has only been in the professional era that students have even contemplated making a career out of rugby, rather than a pastime.

That was common for many of Ulster grammar schools at the time, and given the "troubles", many of our best players left never to return, and were lost to rugby, or at least Irish/Ulster rugby. A few exceptional players of course were able to continue their careers across the water, but the pool of players was inevitably much smaller.

To blame Davy Wells and Methody for what happened a couple of decades and more before the pro era is not only disingenuous, but also wrong, imo.

As for the demise of Collegians, it was one of the last to change from being a "closed club", open only to those who had attended Methody. That was never going to last in the modern era, but they lasted a lot longer than may other previously "closed clubs", despite losing many of its remaining players (ie those who opted not to go across the water) to other clubs and/or university sides.
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Re: Ulster v Leinster Sat Mar 6th 7:35pm KO

Post by big mervyn » Tue Mar 09, 2021 5:53 pm

The clever ones are definitely not going down the professional route.
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Re: Ulster v Leinster Sat Mar 6th 7:35pm KO

Post by HammerTime » Tue Mar 09, 2021 10:30 pm

So we need to increase the overall student numbers at the local
University’s as most of the places are being mopped up by ppl from a non rugby background. UR need to get the top youngsters into their system as early as possible to make them feel like they might have a possible professional rugby career as opposed to heading over the water for a boring degree and a steady but ultimately unexciting life.

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Re: Ulster v Leinster Sat Mar 6th 7:35pm KO

Post by Dave » Tue Mar 09, 2021 10:52 pm

Have a career that lasts until early 30s. Get dementia in late 40s.

Or sign for Ulster, don't play but invest the wage you have stolen into sausages.
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Re: Ulster v Leinster Sat Mar 6th 7:35pm KO

Post by Bobbievee » Tue Mar 09, 2021 11:13 pm

Thank you all for the comments and information on the schools set up iro Gaa and Rugby North and south.
I suppose my supplementary is what would be done to involve more gaa players in rugby union? I accept this is already a biased question, and could be asked the other way round, but in my defence, this is a rugby forum!!

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Re: Ulster v Leinster Sat Mar 6th 7:35pm KO

Post by Dave » Tue Mar 09, 2021 11:45 pm

They hang around in white vans in GAA car parks with sweets and fags.
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Re: Ulster v Leinster Sat Mar 6th 7:35pm KO

Post by rumncoke » Wed Mar 10, 2021 1:01 am

I assume you mean cigarettes
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Re: Ulster v Leinster Sat Mar 6th 7:35pm KO

Post by Big Smoke Culchie » Wed Mar 10, 2021 1:41 pm

Hans Indaruck wrote:
Tue Mar 09, 2021 5:23 pm
I think it is somewhat disingenuous to label Methody and Davy Wells with that glass ceiling mindset.
I too had the privilege of being coached by Davy and his primary goal was getting the best from each individual. Of course the School’s Cup was a major focus (just beneath beating Inst.!!) but you have to remember that there was not the same feeder system into the Ulster set up as there is now. Schools fed into clubs and they in turn fed into the Junior Ulster and Ulster Development set up - but it was all very limited and hit and miss!
It’s only in the past 15 years or so that Ulster and schools gelled better and schools seeing the benefit of bringing in professional coaches and trainers etc.
There is no doubt we are still playing ‘catch-up’!
Davy Wells was my coach at school. The best coach I ever had. I also couldnt get away from rugby fast enough when I left school. Was dragged back to it a few years later and just played social rugby which was some of the must enjoyable rugby I've ever played. Davy sucked all the pleasure out of it. He had his favourites and they were lauded throughout the school. Even had their own blazer badges. The rest of us were there just to make them look good. It just felt like a suffocating class system in microcosim. There were two types of people in Methody. The rugger buggers and the rest of us.
Joe Schmidt is a Leinster ballbag

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