Ulster v Leinster Sat Mar 6th 7:35pm KO

Talk about the men in white, and everything Ulster!!

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Hans Indaruck
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Re: Ulster v Leinster Sat Mar 6th 7:35pm KO

Post by Hans Indaruck » Wed Mar 10, 2021 2:58 pm

Big Smoke Culchie wrote:
Wed Mar 10, 2021 1:41 pm


Davy Wells was my coach at school. The best coach I ever had. I also couldnt get away from rugby fast enough when I left school. Was dragged back to it a few years later and just played social rugby which was some of the must enjoyable rugby I've ever played. Davy sucked all the pleasure out of it. He had his favourites and they were lauded throughout the school. Even had their own blazer badges. The rest of us were there just to make them look good. It just felt like a suffocating class system in microcosim. There were two types of people in Methody. The rugger buggers and the rest of us.
Sorry Culchie, but I don’t recognise that in relation to Davy Wells at all! I was by no means a top player but he encouraged me greatly. I gave up rugby for hockey in 3rd form for a year but he welcomed me back when I returned to the fold. He certainly focussed a lot on the 1st XV squad - but rightly so. As regard ‘ favourites’ - nobody was ‘undropable’!
Your comment re blazers is misleading - honours blazers were awarded to those who represented the school successfully in their sport and applied to hockey, netball and even chess!
I have huge respect for Davy Wells and am very grateful for the feel for rugby he instilled in me!
I’m sorry if you had a different experience!
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Re: Ulster v Leinster Sat Mar 6th 7:35pm KO

Post by Snipe Watson » Wed Mar 10, 2021 5:16 pm

Kenny Hooks has the right idea about coaching schools rugby and developing players. Davy Wells loved winning, not the game.

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Re: Ulster v Leinster Sat Mar 6th 7:35pm KO

Post by Hans Indaruck » Wed Mar 10, 2021 10:07 pm

Snipe Watson wrote:
Wed Mar 10, 2021 5:16 pm
Kenny Hooks has the right idea about coaching schools rugby and developing players. Davy Wells loved winning, not the game.
And what's wrong with loving winning?!

Actually Davy Wells was passionate about the game and that rubbed off on (most of) those he coached!
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Re: Ulster v Leinster Sat Mar 6th 7:35pm KO

Post by Dave » Wed Mar 10, 2021 10:18 pm

Wells out
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Re: Ulster v Leinster Sat Mar 6th 7:35pm KO

Post by Snipe Watson » Wed Mar 10, 2021 10:20 pm

Hans Indaruck wrote:
Wed Mar 10, 2021 10:07 pm
Snipe Watson wrote:
Wed Mar 10, 2021 5:16 pm
Kenny Hooks has the right idea about coaching schools rugby and developing players. Davy Wells loved winning, not the game.
And what's wrong with loving winning?!

Actually Davy Wells was passionate about the game and that rubbed off on (most of) those he coached!
I'm just going by what I heard from his interview with Gusher. I could be wrong, but I wasn't impressed. I'm not wrong about Kenny Hooks.

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Re: Ulster v Leinster Sat Mar 6th 7:35pm KO

Post by big mervyn » Wed Mar 10, 2021 10:27 pm

Not going to be a great crop this year with the cream of Ulster's young rugby talent sitting on their holes for a whole season. Suppose it's the same for everybody mind.
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Re: Ulster v Leinster Sat Mar 6th 7:35pm KO

Post by Sue Dename » Wed Mar 10, 2021 10:49 pm

Hans Indaruck wrote:
Tue Mar 09, 2021 5:23 pm
I think it is somewhat disingenuous to label Methody and Davy Wells with that glass ceiling mindset.
I too had the privilege of being coached by Davy and his primary goal was getting the best from each individual. Of course the School’s Cup was a major focus (just beneath beating Inst.!!) but you have to remember that there was not the same feeder system into the Ulster set up as there is now. Schools fed into clubs and they in turn fed into the Junior Ulster and Ulster Development set up - but it was all very limited and hit and miss!
It’s only in the past 15 years or so that Ulster and schools gelled better and schools seeing the benefit of bringing in professional coaches and trainers etc.
There is no doubt we are still playing ‘catch-up’!
I only put into writing how I feel and what I observed. Davy Wells is good coach but his vision was short sighted, and doesn't particularly help Ulster.
Up until PJ, Gilroy etc Well's only two internationals were Jeremy Davidson and Niall Malone (who I think was a one cap wonder), thats a terrible return form the largest school in the province.
I have family who won the schools cup at Methody over the past 15 years and neither have picked up a rugby ball since. The mindset is win the schools and go out the top.
As I see it the fall out happened at Methody and cascaded through other schools, and Ulster have had a shortfall of quality players coming through ever since.

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Re: Ulster v Leinster Sat Mar 6th 7:35pm KO

Post by Dave » Wed Mar 10, 2021 10:59 pm

big mervyn wrote:Not going to be a great crop this year with the cream of Ulster's young rugby talent sitting on their holes for a whole season. Suppose it's the same for everybody mind.
Two very dead rubbers coming up. Two perfect nipper blooding fixtures. Lets see if we can beat the dragons without the Leinster castaways.
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Re: Ulster v Leinster Sat Mar 6th 7:35pm KO

Post by UlsterNo9 » Wed Mar 10, 2021 11:30 pm

Bobbievee wrote:
Tue Mar 09, 2021 11:13 pm
Thank you all for the comments and information on the schools set up iro Gaa and Rugby North and south.
I suppose my supplementary is what would be done to involve more gaa players in rugby union? I accept this is already a biased question, and could be asked the other way round, but in my defence, this is a rugby forum!!
Bobbie you're relying on the local clubs youth setup to offer a way in to rugby for young guys that attend gaa or soccer playing schools.

Youth club rugby is ran by volunteers, not salary paid teachers who are expected to do it as part of their remit, many clubs struggle to field underage teams.

I believe Armagh have a strong youth club. What are they doing right? Willie Faloon joint DOR for school and club and paid for it.
Last edited by UlsterNo9 on Wed Mar 10, 2021 11:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ulster v Leinster Sat Mar 6th 7:35pm KO

Post by Dave » Wed Mar 10, 2021 11:32 pm

The problem for us is the education system in NI. It's just too good. In ROI it's extremely poor. I know this from experiencing both. Down there you have to pay for a decent school. Therefore the schools are loaded. Full professional sport setups. In NI they have grammar school education which means you have to be a nerd to get in. We all know nerds are not good at sport. They also have brad pitt setups. You can see the issue. In ROI you can be dumb but if your folks are rich you can into a good school. That's why those guys need pro rugby because they don't have the brains to get jobs other than in IT or at Daddos firm.
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Re: Ulster v Leinster Sat Mar 6th 7:35pm KO

Post by Hans Indaruck » Thu Mar 11, 2021 1:36 am

Sue Dename wrote:
Wed Mar 10, 2021 10:49 pm
Hans Indaruck wrote:
Tue Mar 09, 2021 5:23 pm
I think it is somewhat disingenuous to label Methody and Davy Wells with that glass ceiling mindset.
I too had the privilege of being coached by Davy and his primary goal was getting the best from each individual. Of course the School’s Cup was a major focus (just beneath beating Inst.!!) but you have to remember that there was not the same feeder system into the Ulster set up as there is now. Schools fed into clubs and they in turn fed into the Junior Ulster and Ulster Development set up - but it was all very limited and hit and miss!
It’s only in the past 15 years or so that Ulster and schools gelled better and schools seeing the benefit of bringing in professional coaches and trainers etc.
There is no doubt we are still playing ‘catch-up’!
I only put into writing how I feel and what I observed. Davy Wells is good coach but his vision was short sighted, and doesn't particularly help Ulster.
Up until PJ, Gilroy etc Well's only two internationals were Jeremy Davidson and Niall Malone (who I think was a one cap wonder), thats a terrible return form the largest school in the province.
I have family who won the schools cup at Methody over the past 15 years and neither have picked up a rugby ball since. The mindset is win the schools and go out the top.
As I see it the fall out happened at Methody and cascaded through other schools, and Ulster have had a shortfall of quality players coming through ever since.
Not many Irish internationals I grant you (though you left out Roger Young, Paul Kennedy and of course Paul Marshall!) RBAI probably have a better return in that respect. However, there were a host of Ulster players - too many to name here but including the likes of Ricky Stewart, Arthur Campbell, Ashley Armstrong, Maurice Dawson, Alan McKee - to name but a few off the top of my head. I really don’t see how Methody can be blamed for any decline - times were different as has been pointed out. Is it a jealousy thing just because Methody has won the Schools Cup more than any other school?
BTW - Niall Malone had 3 Irish caps!!
Last edited by Hans Indaruck on Thu Mar 11, 2021 10:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ulster v Leinster Sat Mar 6th 7:35pm KO

Post by Cap'n Grumpy » Thu Mar 11, 2021 4:20 am

Snipe Watson wrote:
Wed Mar 10, 2021 5:16 pm
Kenny Hooks has the right idea about coaching schools rugby and developing players. Davy Wells loved winning, not the game.
I cannot comment on Kenny Hooks, but I disagree completely about Davy Wells. Of course he loved winning, but it didn't stop there. He was very passionate about the game, and he was also passionate about the players.

I was a long way off being a decent player so clearly wasn't on his radar as much as many others, but I felt he treated me the same as those who were the top players. Maybe he just empathised with those who were also passionate about the game.

I met him about 35 years after leaving school and he came over to me and started chatting as if we had been talking just the previous day - a natural at relationships . . . with most.

When I say I met him, I was actually about 50m away and walking on a parallel course, while he was with some other teachers or coaches (I presumed) prior to a Methody 1st XV match against my son's school. While I was prepared to leave the man alone, it was him broke off from his group and came over to speak to me, called me by name (which surprised me after all that time) and spent time chatting when he might otherwise have been preparing his team before kick-off.

I suppose we all get on differently with different people, but I have nothing but respect for Davy Wells the coach, teacher and human being.

Re the different badges at school for those who excelled, that was part of an honours system that predated Davy, probably by about a century, and remained after he "retired" (if indeed someone like Davy ever does fully retire). Not a lot different from many schools around the province or beyond.

I suspect that what criticism Davy receives is all too often based on the fact that he was simply better at his job than many others, but to criticise him for doing his job as best he could, doesn't sit comfortably with me. Do we criticise maths teachers, science teachers, language teachers etc because their pupils get too many As or A*s in their exams?

I know things have changed, and there is a lot more to PE and sport at schools these days, not least GCSEs and A-Levels etc, but back in the day, winning was probably the only way of measuring (crudely) how a PE teacher was performing. I have known a number of other PE teachers who coasted through their careers content not to try too hard.
Sadly the days of people using proper English are went

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Re: Ulster v Leinster Sat Mar 6th 7:35pm KO

Post by rumncoke » Thu Mar 11, 2021 11:51 am

Back -a- day PE and games were not subjects as such it was recognition that physical fitness was necessary both before and after school life to improve a persons health.

There were those who enjoyed and those who didn't ,but enjoyed the fact that it was 1/2 an hour to an hour away from the some teacher trying to ram some facts in to your head.

Similarly the game was less of a drill then than now -- no lifting in the line out -- loose scrums rather than rucks with greater emphasises on backs running with the ball and passing rather the pick and shuffle forward ruck to ruck of the modern game. where the defence normally is numerically stronger than attack.

Scrums formed quickly with out the referee interference the ball went in middle and the hooker hooked

Therefore less things to practice because restarts were more of a lottery and fouling could ruin anything practiced eg spot their line out Jumper --hold his shorts ,hit his shoulder there was much more interference and less clean ball .
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Re: Ulster v Leinster Sat Mar 6th 7:35pm KO

Post by Bobbievee » Thu Mar 11, 2021 12:01 pm

Grumps
Nt sure if you are in the same time zone as GMT, but something slightly weird, or even sad, about you posting on several threads at 3.20am...................and even sadder and weirder that I read them shortly afterwards!

Blame it on lockdown

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Re: Ulster v Leinster Sat Mar 6th 7:35pm KO

Post by Bullneck » Thu Mar 11, 2021 1:15 pm

It is now 40 years since my initial appearance as a fresh-faced fifth-former for a Methody 1st XV and in the 3 years that I was involved in and around this squad, the furthest we got in the Schools Cup was a quarte-final loss to an RBAI team that lost in the final to Grosvenor HS.

I moved on to play at Collegians, which was the season after they beat City of Derry in to win the Senior Cup. There were six others who also joined from the school at this time and from then on, until the time of the merger with NIRFC, there were no more than 3 or 4 players arriving from the school on an annual basis, this despite constant lobbying and various meetings asking for this type of commitment.

I should also note that in my year at school there were only 4 or 5 or us who were good enough to play at 1st XV level regularly and after school, several of those moved on with their lives as it was pretty clear that they had no interest in playing rugby - or any other sport for that matter - once they moved out into the big bad world. It was also clear that many of the pupils in my school year were leaving for university across the water and even if they did commit to playing rugby it would be for a team in their locale.

I should also note that whilst not many of my peers were initially lost to other clubs, it was about this time that what talent did emerge from the schools system and which decided to remain in the province, started to gravitate towards Bangor, Ballymena, Malone, Instonians and North.

I loved playing, my introduction to the sport was the Baa Baa's V NZ in1973. As I watched it on the telly, I said to myself that I was going to play that sport one day, which I was lucky enough to follow it through. I was also fortunate in that I not only went to a rugby-playing school, but that I encountered someone as passionate about the game in not only David Wells but also those who were prepared to put their time and effort in coaching me through the lower years.

There has been plenty of chat on this site as to why Ulster can no longer find sufficient talent to fill the forwards at academy level and I am afraid that i cannot answer that, other than to say that there is still a large 'brain-drain' with student moving across to Scotland & England after their A-Levels and realistically how many of these people come back once they discover "Wine, Women, Song, Sex, Drugs & Rock n' Roll" or end up having to work shifts over a weekend - remember, life has changed.

It must also be said that I feel that IRFU/UB do themselves little favour by not having a better/more focused programme to attract those from outside their natural catchment area which means providing resources in largely GAA and soccer areas which need to be done for the long term and with a filter through to the club game, in much the same way that GAA clubs operate.

There are more distractions for the youth of today than ever before, you only have to look at the growth in cycling, computer gaming, skateboarding, water sports (various), running, etc, which are a lot easier than giving or receiving a thumping on a daily/weekly basis - even though this was the bit that I really enjoyed, though my mum hated seeing the results.

As with most things, it is a game of numbers, Methody, Campbell & Inst have won the Schools Cup the most because that have the greater numbers of players in any given year, which means that the school coach may have several options in each position and wherefore affords them the opportunity to put together a good side, however I do recall DW giving a speech at the beginning of each year telling those present that if you did not wan to be there then go get changed and leave - no recriminations - he only wanted to work with those who wanted to be there. And to be fair to him, I did watch several guys leave on each of the 3 occasions were I was a witness to this. It is therefore apparent that coaches of any team is limited to not only the amount of effort that the pupils wish to exert, but also that physique, stature and skill-sets of those participants as no one can make a line-breaking full back out of a bunch of 23 props.

Anyhow, my tuppence-worth now over, I see that Andrew Warwick has picked up a 2 match ban as reported by RTE

https://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/2021/031 ... -red-card/

Yet there have been no further reports of action on any of the Leinster players. This despite comment (with which I fully concur) by Owen Doyle in his column in the IT: -

"In the Match of Cards, Ulster v Leinster, referee Frank Murphy unwisely allowed himself to be talked into a red card by TMO Olly Hodges; Murphy’s original “decision” of yellow, was undoubtedly the correct call. Insult is often added to injury and Leinster’s Jimmy O’Brien was very fortunate that the referee saw no more than ‘yellow’ in his collision into Ian Madigan."

You have to wonder sometimes!!!

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