Connacht v Ulster Sat Oct 23rd 5:15pm KO

Talk about the men in white, and everything Ulster!!

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Bart S
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Re: Connacht v Ulster Sat Oct 23rd 5:15pm KO

Post by Bart S »

Soda wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 9:10 am And tighthead

With Marty* out, Kane is our bench tighthead. God love him but he's just not up to it


*gives hope to fat fecks eveywhere, if he can be a professional athete then so can I

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Think he may have been a loosehead but time to recall Schalk Van der Merwe from Lurgan.........to run the hot dog van at half time
Soda
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Re: Connacht v Ulster Sat Oct 23rd 5:15pm KO

Post by Soda »

The hot dog stall?
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WestDr
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Re: Connacht v Ulster Sat Oct 23rd 5:15pm KO

Post by WestDr »

Soda wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 7:07 am not quite sure how the inquest has turned into an anti Doak rant
Yes he he was having ago at the ref and yes he shouldn't have but let's not forget that the ref was utterly abysmal and Doak is likely to be our best player in the next decade


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So the ref being abysmal covers for all the areas where Nathan Doak could look at his game and improve for the benefit of the team ? No one on this forum thread is disagreeing in any way with the fact that Nathan Doak (i) already does some great things others can't and (ii) has the potential to be our best player (or one of them - we hope) in the next decade. What is being sought is, as Jonny Mercer put it ... "to accentuate the positive, eliminate the negative, latch on to the affirmative and don't mess with Mr In-Between".

My concern with what Nathan Doak currently does is that (a) it annoys the ref (as pointed out, there's both a time and a place for it and judgement required to know when) but far more importantly when he is gesticulating for a whistle it (b) means his hands are as far away from the ball as they can be - when his task is to get in there, gets his hands on the ball, get it out from the rampaging hordes of their back-row forwards and give it to his backs - which is what actually happened on more than one occasion on Saturday due to arm-waving, and has been a feature for a few matches. Furthermore, his delay (as noted by others) in putting the ball into the scrum also doesn't help his front row in any way. Whilst O'Toole, Herring and O'Sullivan are good enough to cope with that 10 second delay, Warwick, Roberts and Kane struggle - yes, they're not quite good enough, but that's what's on the pitch at the time. So get in it and get it out pronto, especially when you've a ref that doesn't seem inclined to give scrum penalties either way, but will start if your front row keeps collapsing under prolonged pressure as the opposition scrum gets wise to that weakness.

These are all small, but important, things that any good coach will have spotted and be doing something about. And it's just the sort of thing that Dan McF, in playing Doak in these types of fixtures, is seeking to (a) have him experience and (b) see him learn from. Nathan isn't the finished article, and I'd suggest that Saturday's experience has shown that to him, if he wasn't already aware. If he's half the player we think he is (and I believe he can be) then it'll do him a power of good. Blaming the ref does nothing.
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Re: Connacht v Ulster Sat Oct 23rd 5:15pm KO

Post by Bobbievee »

not quite sure how the inquest has turned into an anti Doak rant

Soda
well, as Westdr points out, it hasn't. What needs to be done about the non functioning back line is one of the questions about the UR performance ( since the beginning of the season) and one of the aspects of that is the speed of the ball away from the breakdown.

His slowness to the ball , his tendency to often replant his feet as part of his readiness to pass,( watch some videos of him) , and the average speed of his pass all contribute to a slow tempo and a less than average no 10 getting the ball "late" . He often just ships it on. ( I could still do it!!) My original point was that Connaught had worked all this out, and half of Connaught were up amongst the UR back line , waiting, every single time.

Doak can be improved, but if these basic skills of a No 9 dont develop, his kicking us out of trouble will be a poor counterargument.
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Re: Connacht v Ulster Sat Oct 23rd 5:15pm KO

Post by Bobbievee »

:stir: :stir: :stir: and meant to say..........

what about Doak as a 15??
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Re: Connacht v Ulster Sat Oct 23rd 5:15pm KO

Post by justinr73 »

Bobbievee wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 11:22 am :stir: :stir: :stir: and meant to say..........

what about Doak as a 15??
Well he’s played quite a bit at 10.
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Dave
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Re: Connacht v Ulster Sat Oct 23rd 5:15pm KO

Post by Dave »

Bobbievee wrote:not quite sure how the inquest has turned into an anti Doak rant

Soda
well, as Westdr points out, it hasn't. What needs to be done about the non functioning back line is one of the questions about the UR performance ( since the beginning of the season) and one of the aspects of that is the speed of the ball away from the breakdown.

His slowness to the ball , his tendency to often replant his feet as part of his readiness to pass,( watch some videos of him) , and the average speed of his pass all contribute to a slow tempo and a less than average no 10 getting the ball "late" . He often just ships it on. ( I could still do it!!) My original point was that Connaught had worked all this out, and half of Connaught were up amongst the UR back line , waiting, every single time.

Doak can be improved, but if these basic skills of a No 9 dont develop, his kicking us out of trouble will be a poor counterargument.
I agree with the Soda. The number of hyper critical rants regarding a 19 year old playing his fourth ever professional game is frankly embarrassing. It's becoming a little obsessive. No doubt any further discussion will entrench these views. The potential for confirmation bias coming through on future posts likely, regarding future fixtures/performances.

I would like to know what objective measurement you are using to conclude that young Nathan displaying such slowness? Don't tell me it's just watching with these videos with your eyes? I would like to see some hard data with comparison to other players of his age. What are you expecting from a 19 year old? He is learning his trade on the job because the Ulster Academy has never produced a 9 of any repute. Many false dawns have occurred with wee dave, p, porter, BODs cousin, even Alby lost the plot somewhat last season.

What is clear is the accuracy of the ball that Doak provides to the 10. Consistently accurate passing. This is easily observable. This is why he sometimes takes a step or replants. He has to secure his feet to ensure an accurate delivery to the 10. It is difficult with a less than dominant pack. He's far from perfect but he is clearly better than any other option in the squad with Cooney out.

The issue with the backline is not at 9. It's clearly with Burns. He is an awful distributor. Somewhat mitigated by a poor/slow recycle at the ruck with seemingly a few marginal to quite clear offside infringements, perhaps unnoticed. Teams are aware of how to cut off the supply to the backline. You target Billy, he might even pass you the ball.
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justinr73
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Re: Connacht v Ulster Sat Oct 23rd 5:15pm KO

Post by justinr73 »

I don’t see anything that’s either constructive criticism or, at the very least, well intentioned.
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Re: Connacht v Ulster Sat Oct 23rd 5:15pm KO

Post by rumncoke »

Constructive

Faster hands on the ball -- faster put in the scrum if the front row is weak -- and the ref allows a pre-put- in arm wrestle or pull-down by the opposition .

The things he has going for him --attitude and speed to the breakdown -- and the fact is he has shown more promise in 4 four matches than McIlroy has shown in two seasons on the wing and full back .
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Re: Connacht v Ulster Sat Oct 23rd 5:15pm KO

Post by Cap'n Grumpy »

Dave wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 12:42 am I agree with the Soda. The number of hyper critical rants regarding a 19 year old playing his fourth ever professional game is frankly embarrassing. It's becoming a little obsessive. No doubt any further discussion will entrench these views. The potential for confirmation bias coming through on future posts likely, regarding future fixtures/performances.
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Soda
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Re: Connacht v Ulster Sat Oct 23rd 5:15pm KO

Post by Soda »

Just to be clear I get that there are multiple aspects of his game that need to improve, that he needs to cut out the back chat, that he's no where near the finished article

Of course he's not, he's still only ninrteen for goodness sake

But he is, without any question, is the brightest prospect we have produced in a very, very long time.

He is not the reason we lost and the big take away from Saturday's debacle shouldn't be that a teenager isn't quite perfect.

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Re: Connacht v Ulster Sat Oct 23rd 5:15pm KO

Post by Soda »

Maybe "rant" was too strong a word though.

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jean valjean
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Re: Connacht v Ulster Sat Oct 23rd 5:15pm KO

Post by jean valjean »

rumncoke wrote:Constructive

Faster hands on the ball -- faster put in the scrum if the front row is weak -- and the ref allows a pre-put- in arm wrestle or pull-down by the opposition .

The things he has going for him --attitude and speed to the breakdown -- and the fact is he has shown more promise in 4 four matches than McIlroy has shown in two seasons on the wing and full back .
The timing of the put in the the scrum is controlled by the hooker not the scrum half so doak is blameless in this regard. If there is a delay then the hooker has not signalled he is comfortable with the ball coming in yet. Standing looking at it at the 8s feet is something however the scrumhalf can avoid especially if the scrum is under pressure.
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Re: Connacht v Ulster Sat Oct 23rd 5:15pm KO

Post by TopPoster »

Tend to agree there is unnecessary focus on a 19 year old playing his 4th game which detracts from the real cause of Ulster’s continuing issue - a powder puff pack routinely bettered and battered.

I would strongly suggest even a pairing of St Ruan and Ginger Prince wouldn’t have made a difference in the match enough to turn it around. The pack lost the match again and the old cliche still rings true: forwards win the game, backs determine how big the win.

All NIQ spots should be focused on the pack, there are enough promising backs in the squad but can do fcuk all going backwards. Carter needs replaced with a Muller type, VD will do nicely, but is yer man Milowhatshisface even still on the books - can’t even remember how to pronounce or spell his name as rarely see it or him. Waste of space.

Get a new NIQ prop, a better Lock, and another back row - a P3 grater. All saffers who buy in well to the cause and life.
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Re: Connacht v Ulster Sat Oct 23rd 5:15pm KO

Post by Snipe Watson »

If we are looking at bringing in NIQs, 10 should be the focus unless there is belief that Lowry is the long term answer with Madigan as his back-up. I'd like to see our current young props getting a real run at turning their potential into reality. Ross Kane is, at best, third on the tighthead depth chart. What do people expect from him? He's a sound enough squad player who can do a job, but will get found out at times.
Same as with 19 year old halfbacks, expectations need to be realistic for a no.3 no. 3.
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