Munster 2012/13

[ColinM]

It would appear from what i have seen of Munster so far that Keatley is vastly superior to ROG in almost every facet of the game, unless you want your 10 to exclusively kick for territory all game. Keatley has a pass, a break, a boot (has missed 1 and slotted 14 so far i think) and a fearless tackle.

The only reason ROG could be getting picked ahead of Keatley is to keep him happy and surely that is a bad start to a new coach's tenure?

[mikerob]

The only reason ROG could be getting picked ahead of Keatley is to keep him happy and surely that is a bad start to a new coach's tenure?

Another reason would be if Penney is under orders from Kidney.

[darkside lightside]

The only reason ROG could be getting picked ahead of Keatley is to keep him happy and surely that is a bad start to a new coach's tenure?

Another reason would be if Penney is under orders from Kidney.

you'd wonder - I don't think there's a coach alive who would be going into the Leinster match with those 2 half-backs, that was a drop-worthy performance if ever I saw one.. It will be interesting to see - if ROG starts, Kidney's hands will be all over it (and Leinster will be laughing all the way to a massive victory!!!)

[mikerob]

In partial mitigation for Penney, he selected Murray to start and Stringer only came on as a replacement after Murray had the clash of heads. I think they need to do the concussion test thing to assess if Murray is fit to play in the Leinster game.

[pythagoras]

So far all we've had are skirmishes (Ulster game apart), it's much too early to judge.

[darkside lightside]

So far all we've had are skirmishes (Ulster game apart), it's much too early to judge.

define 'skirmish' for me, pyth...??

[ColinM]

If Kidney is doing anything other than saying to the provinces - play your best fly halves; at this point in the season he is a bigger fool than i think; given that the big three all have IQs in first and second choice

[pythagoras]

So far all we've had are skirmishes (Ulster game apart), it's much too early to judge.

define 'skirmish' for me, pyth...??

Munster want to win all their games but they want to win some more than others.
The ones they want to win most, they are prepared to devote all their resources to.
A win in Swansea early in the season is not one of those. So they'll put out a side they think
might have a chance of catching the Os out, give it a decent shot but if it doesn't work ,
they won't be too upset about it. That's a skirmish. A minor battle in the course of a year long war.
OTOH Leinster at the Aviva won't be a skirmish.

[Rooster]

So far all we've had are skirmishes (Ulster game apart), it's much too early to judge.

define 'skirmish' for me, pyth...??

Munster want to win all their games but they want to win some more than others.
The ones they want to win most, they are prepared to devote all their resources to.
A win in Swansea early in the season is not one of those. So they'll put out a side they think
might have a chance of catching the Os out, give it a decent shot but if it doesn't work ,
they won't be too upset about it. That's a skirmish. A minor battle in the course of a year long war.
OTOH Leinster at the Aviva won't be a skirmish.

I would have thought early season raid on the O's was a good match to pick up points on as they are a bit like the ladies in that they are brad pitt at the start if the season

[pythagoras]

I would have thought early season raid on the O's was a good match to pick up points on as they are a bit like the ladies in that they are brad pitt at the start if the season

If all Munster were interested in was maximising the points return from the 22 league games this season they'd send out 15 AIL
players next Saturday and save their best for Newport, Zebre and the like.

[BaggyTrousers]

This is my first visit to this thread, don't know what was wrong with the old one

Anyway sad to see the obvious wish of some for a Munster collapse & some yet again bad mouthing tried and tested players with a record of producing the goods when under the pump.

[Rooster]

I would have thought early season raid on the O's was a good match to pick up points on as they are a bit like the ladies in that they are brad pitt at the start if the season

If all Munster were interested in was maximising the points return from the 22 league games this season they'd send out 15 AIL
players next Saturday and save their best for Newport, Zebre and the like.

Why ? have you no faith that they can beat the Ladies ? and if you need your best squad to play Newport and Zebre then I despair.

[rumncoke]

Baggy very few in Ulster would sing the praises of RoG if were playing well many in fact rejoice in the fact he is playing badly .

RoG has always been a player who brings the worst out of an Ulster supporter he has been a competent out half who fails to inspire because you know before he does what he's going to do.

I for one prefer a strong Munster team to a weak one they have a robust approach to the game which is motivating at International level .
That admitted there is also the fact that there are those who would consider that some in the Munster squad are over rated not just by Munsterfans and DK but by themselves as well and we in Ulster prefer our stars to be modest and humble.

[rocky]

If I had a pound for every time I've heard some fool writing off Munster before the Heineken, well...........I'd have several pounds. IMHO the crucial thing is whether or not they get POC back to fitness in time because he is such a talisman. Also, like him or not, ROG has won a lot of matches for them and they always seem capable of snatching victory from the jaws of defeat. Interestingly, I think the situation has gone from one where they had a very good pack and suspect backs to one where their pack is maybe a bit dodgy but their backs are good. If they can put out a pack with Du Preez, Sherry, Botha, POC, DOC, Ryan, Ronan and O'Mahony, then I think they will be very competitive. Add in a backline of Murray, Keatley, Downey, Laulala, Earls, Howlett and Hurley and I think they have a strong side.

[darkside lightside]

I would have thought early season raid on the O's was a good match to pick up points on as they are a bit like the ladies in that they are brad pitt at the start if the season

If all Munster were interested in was maximising the points return from the 22 league games this season they'd send out 15 AIL
players next Saturday and save their best for Newport, Zebre and the like.

Why ? have you no faith that they can beat the Ladies ? and if you need your best squad to play Newport and Zebre then I despair.

exactly, and while it's a nice attempt to rationalise a start to the season which has been pretty mixed, this supposed mindset is the absolute antithesis of Munster's mindset back in their all-conquering years, when there seemed to be such a strong inner belief in the squad that every time they went onto the pitch they could come away with a victory. Picking games in advance that are 'unwinnable', that you essentially elect to throw, is a mark of unconfidence in the squad (and on this forum we know a bit about this from first hand experience over the years )

As it happens I don't think this actually is the case - the problem is that the squad simply isn't as good as it was even 3-4 years ago. The front row is very dependent on the Saffas to hold up at scrum-time, Varley carries but can't throw, a lot of previously influential players are starting to show their age, notably ROG, but even Howlett, still classy but not quite the player he was. The back rows that Munster can put out this year are pale imitations of those of the fairly recent past - yes they're still fairly young, and some look quite promising, but say POM-Coughlan-TOD versus say Quinlan-Leamy-Wallace, just no comparison. Another problem I think is that some of the young (or 'young' by Munster standards) players have been over-hyped - Sherry, Murray, also Nagle and Foley have been the 'next big things' in the second row for about 5 years now..

All that said, there are some bright points - I've always liked Keatley as a player, and I think he's been good this year. Earls is class, and I think Downey and Laulala were good business; LOD and Zebo are also pretty exciting. And of course things can change quickly, the squad is still bedding in under a new coach, if they gel and get a head of steam up, they can still do well this season. I think they need to lose the mentality of always hoping that a returning talisman can lift the team etc - it's time to accept that in all likelihood POC is pretty much done as a Munster player. He might make it back, and even make big contributions for a few games, but will he ever be fit for an entire season, and be capable of the feats of yesteryear? My guess is no. Likewise ROG.

In Penney they might have the guy to do this - he doesn't seem in thrall to the old guard - he made Howlett captain, and I haven't seen or heard of Foley since the start of the season. I reckon he needs to pick 10-12-13 of Keatley-Downey-Laulala, Earls on the wing or at FB, keep his fingers crossed that Botha stays fit, and hope for a few breaks.

Get rid of the daft duplication of facilities, get the squad properly bound together in one group, learn properly the lesson that you disregard the academy / succession at your peril, and Munster won't be far away for long...