Neutral Referees

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BaggyTrousers
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Neutral Referees

Post by BaggyTrousers » Sun May 28, 2017 1:12 pm

It is not the done thing to criticise Nigel Owens however this morning on thinking back to that game I find myself thinking that the league have placed everyone in an invidious position.

Albeit I have a warm and cosy feeling towards the Turnips, I am not as one-eyed watching them as when I watch Ulster. My feeling is that he gave Scaaaaaaaalets ever close decision going and made 2 absolute shocking decisions, the first of which was at a stage when it mattered, the third try.

So, Nigel showed to me that even the best of refs are susceptible to favouring their local team, that hugely forward pass (I said at least 2 metres but on further viewing 3/4 metres forward) I refuse to believe he would have made the same call if it had been a Munster try he was looking at, for you must engage you blind eye to see that as acceptable.

It reminded me of the time the Lions scrum half, against South Africa, asked "whose ball is it ref?" And got the reply - "Ours"

The other call when he ignored a prompt and accurate call from his touchie, "red 16 offside", could be said not to matter, but it does matter, why did he ignore it? That matters, he had no business ignoring it, he is not bigger than the laws, even if he considers himself bigger than the other officials.

Despite the league apparently asking Munster did they find him acceptable, it is a rank bad call that they 1) put Munster in the tricky position of potentially suggesting the great man might be biased 2) that they put Owens in the position that making some poor decisions that favoured his local club, his impartiality is in question. I thought that like Peter O'Mahony, he had one of the worst games I've seen from him.
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Shan
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Re: Neutral Referees

Post by Shan » Sun May 28, 2017 1:37 pm

I don't think Nigel made any decisions due to bias. He simply makes mistakes just like any other referee. He trusts his own judgement a little too much sometimes perhaps but I'd prefer that than the referees who need the TMO to tell them what has happened right in front of them. I think he does it all for the right reasons of trying to keep the game flowing so I tend to try to overlook his errors as much as possible.


That being said your general point is still a good one. Pro12 final would probably be better having a French or English ref. Of course we'd have to make sure the English guy was not really a West-English guy. :D
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Re: Neutral Referees

Post by ruckover » Sun May 28, 2017 1:40 pm

There was a perfectly good neutral ref in Marius Mitrea sitting on his hoop this weekend with nothing to do.
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Re: Neutral Referees

Post by Dave » Sun May 28, 2017 1:45 pm

Lol
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Re: Neutral Referees

Post by jean valjean » Sun May 28, 2017 3:43 pm

For the forward pass I think Nigel was looking for confirmation of his intitial view that it was ok. Watching the replay there was angle that made it look absolutely fine, although the camera was behind play so it looked backwards. Nige sees himself as the senior ref and doesn't pass the buck to the TMO like others do.

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Re: Neutral Referees

Post by Snipe Watson » Sun May 28, 2017 4:16 pm

I love this debate about forward passes. It's a massive grey area for many, but the clarification of the law is clear in my view.
First thing, and I'm not a physicist so maybe I have this wrong. I'm also going to explain it in layman's term, because that's what I've got!

1. Two players and a ball moving at high speed up the pitch one passes the ball to another. The momentum of the forward movement will be transmitted to the ball carrying it forward if judged by its position in relation to static lines on the pitch. So I assume the lines on the pitch should be largely ignored in this situation.

2. The quicker the players are travelling the further back the ball would need to be passed in order to ensure that it is received behind where it was delivered. So the referee would need a complex algorithm to establish if the pass was forward or not

3 World rugby clarified the law by saying if the ball leaves the passers hand travelling backwards, the pass is deemed to be a legitimate pass. Even though the laws of physics decree that the transferred momentum caused the ball to be caught at a point ahead of the one where it was passed when judged in relation to the lines on the pitch.

To a simple soul like me that's a great piece of clarification, because it is simple to see how the ball leaves the passer's hand. In this case the ball left the passer's hand backwards and the referee was correct.

If someone can satisfactorily explain where I'm wrong, I'll be happy to accept it.
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Re: Neutral Referees

Post by ruckover » Sun May 28, 2017 4:38 pm

For me a forward pass should be if the ball goes forwards, simple as. Doesn't matter about the hands, just if the ball travels forward it is forward. Players should adapt accordingly.

But the rules say otherwise so what do I know.
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Re: Neutral Referees

Post by Spiffsson » Sun May 28, 2017 5:31 pm

Snipe Watson wrote:I love this debate about forward passes. It's a massive grey area for many, but the clarification of the law is clear in my view.
First thing, and I'm not a physicist so maybe I have this wrong. I'm also going to explain it in layman's term, because that's what I've got!

1. Two players and a ball moving at high speed up the pitch one passes the ball to another. The momentum of the forward movement will be transmitted to the ball carrying it forward if judged by its position in relation to static lines on the pitch. So I assume the lines on the pitch should be largely ignored in this situation.

2. The quicker the players are travelling the further back the ball would need to be passed in order to ensure that it is received behind where it was delivered. So the referee would need a complex algorithm to establish if the pass was forward or not

3 World rugby clarified the law by saying if the ball leaves the passers hand travelling backwards, the pass is deemed to be a legitimate pass. Even though the laws of physics decree that the transferred momentum caused the ball to be caught at a point ahead of the one where it was passed when judged in relation to the lines on the pitch.

To a simple soul like me that's a great piece of clarification, because it is simple to see how the ball leaves the passer's hand. In this case the ball left the passer's hand backwards and the referee was correct.

If someone can satisfactorily explain where I'm wrong, I'll be happy to accept it.
You are correct but I would like to see return to the old law that is just concerned with whether, overall, the ball travelled forwards or not never mind the initial position of the hands. Receivers would just have to relearn how to lie a little deeper, which might have the added advantage of having them accelerate on the the pass, not having to hang back and wait for it, which you see quite a lot today.
A clever player will keep has hands moving backwards after the pass so that the precise moment of release can sometimes be difficult to spot.

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Shan
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Re: Neutral Referees

Post by Shan » Sun May 28, 2017 5:42 pm

ruckover wrote:For me a forward pass should be if the ball goes forwards, simple as. Doesn't matter about the hands, just if the ball travels forward it is forward. Players should adapt accordingly.

But the rules say otherwise so what do I know.
I agree but it will never be that way again.
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Re: Neutral Referees

Post by Snipe Watson » Sun May 28, 2017 6:00 pm

Reverting to the old law would suit us as we don't come onto the ball with pace anyway.
We're so slow that even our forward passes are backward, especially when we get driven back in the tackle.
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Re: Neutral Referees

Post by BaggyTrousers » Sun May 28, 2017 7:45 pm

jean valjean wrote:For the forward pass I think Nigel was looking for confirmation of his intitial view that it was ok. Watching the replay there was angle that made it look absolutely fine, although the camera was behind play so it looked backwards. Nige sees himself as the senior ref and doesn't pass the buck to the TMO like others do.

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Indeed he seized on the close up which gave no idea of the angle it was taken from and therefore should have been the very last image to rely on. I hate to say it but Nigel was looking for a reason to give it, every other angle confirmed it was miles forward.

That is why I started this thread, there was a very fine ref but he was put in a position to let himself down & he grabbed the opportunity with both hands. Lets put it this way, he was born and raised in a Llanelli postcode, yesterday it showed. Shame really it should not have happened, the organisers gave him the chance to let himself down and he took it.
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Re: Neutral Referees

Post by Cap'n Grumpy » Sun May 28, 2017 7:48 pm

I understand all that theory Snipe.

Consider this: If a train is going at 100mph in one direction, and a fly is flying at 5mph in the opposite direction and they collide, does the train stop due to the impact?

Logic says, of course not. Physics says yes. As the fly flattens across the front of the train, it goes from 5mph in one direction, to -100mph (i.e. in the opposite direction). To do so, there must be an instant when it is at zero mph before its vector changes. Ergo, as it is in contact with the train, the train must also be doing zero mph (for an instant). You may say it is a gradual process as different parts of the fly squish on the front of the train, but any part of the fly at some time must go from 5mph to -100mph, passing through zero mph at some stage, and with that, also the train. Simples! :thumleft:

Theory is all well and good, but when it comes to rugby, if a player passes the ball backwards, then that is what imparts the major momentum to the ball, not the forward momentum of the player. In general their forward speed is what? For rugby players, 10-15mph tops? The speed of the pass is much more than that. The only major factor which could influence the ball going forward is wind, which if strong enough could carry it forward, or if it goes to ground after initially going backwards, it may bounce forward, but that does not constitute a forward pass. :lol:
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Re: Neutral Referees

Post by Snipe Watson » Sun May 28, 2017 8:18 pm

Cap'n Grumpy wrote:I understand all that theory Snipe.

Consider this: If a train is going at 100mph in one direction, and a fly is flying at 5mph in the opposite direction and they collide, does the train stop due to the impact?

Logic says, of course not. Physics says yes. As the fly flattens across the front of the train, it goes from 5mph in one direction, to -100mph (i.e. in the opposite direction). To do so, there must be an instant when it is at zero mph before its vector changes. Ergo, as it is in contact with the train, the train must also be doing zero mph (for an instant). You may say it is a gradual process as different parts of the fly squish on the front of the train, but any part of the fly at some time must go from 5mph to -100mph, passing through zero mph at some stage, and with that, also the train. Simples! :thumleft:

Theory is all well and good, but when it comes to rugby, if a player passes the ball backwards, then that is what imparts the major momentum to the ball, not the forward momentum of the player. In general their forward speed is what? For rugby players, 10-15mph tops? The speed of the pass is much more than that. The only major factor which could influence the ball going forward is wind, which if strong enough could carry it forward, or if it goes to ground after initially going backwards, it may bounce forward, but that does not constitute a forward pass. :lol:
No, not explained to my satisfaction as you have unsurprisingly wandered into the realm of fantasy. :roll: :roll:
The ball travels in a complex arc, not a straight line. Gravity, wind, momentum (moving forward as well as side to side) and so on all have an impact on it's flight. But the single most important factor is the release angle, whether the player released the ball backwards or forwards.
The disparity between the train and the fly renders your nice story a horse biscuit of an analogy. Even I know that everything has an equal and opposite effect. The impact of the fly may be infinitesimal, but it is actual and theoretically measurable. 470,000,000,000,000,000 flies would stop the bloomin train. >seeya
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Re: Neutral Referees

Post by rumncoke » Sun May 28, 2017 8:33 pm

simplicity and fairness should rule

forget theories if a ball is caught in front of where the pass was made its forward simple .

The ball is meant to be passed backwards not laterally ie with a turn of the body rather than a flick of the hands .


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Re: Neutral Referees

Post by BaggyTrousers » Sun May 28, 2017 8:53 pm

What a load of unremitting pish, pish upon pish, upon pish.

I will simply inform you that Einstein himself would have called that forward, it was forward there is nothing more to say.

You know what, those morons at World Rugby have seen year upon year of Super Rugby essentially ignoring forward passes so that they can sell their product as fast, exciting, high scoring rugby. They attempted a fudge that talked about the movement of the hands, but listen up morons, the hands at no point stop going forward when the player goes forward therefore if you believe all that nonsense you spouted there has never ever been a pass that has gone forwards theoretically.

Of course, we know that many passes go backwards and some go forwards. That one was passed on the cut of grass 5 metres from the 22, even allowing for Nigel's one bad eye, even if the player caught the ball "behind" him when on the 22, that ball travelled significantly forwards.

Nigel would have called it against Munster, every other ref in the world would have called it forward, including the balloon who made his best attempt to ruin an already crap game today. Nigel should not have had the whistle yesterday.

Let's put it another way, if some utter fuc'king ballbag, Nigel apart, genuinely believes that that was not a very blatant forward pass, I think I'll stop watching rugby, for clearly, it has become an utter nonsense unworthy of my time spent watching it.

An awful decision, Owens should be ashamed of himself for reffing home his hometown team who may well not have required his assistance.
Support the team and coaching staff. Forget the rest,BUT NEVER MOVE ON.

FIRFU - FU'CK YOU ONE AND ALL, CAVING IN TO SPONSORS, SACKING THE INNOCENT FOR A FEW DOLLARS MORE, SHAMEFUL BASTA'RDS. YOU'VE LOST MY SUPPORT & I HOPE MORE ULSTERMEN & WOMEN

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