Autumn Nations Cup aka 8 Nations

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big mervyn
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Re: Autumn Nations Cup aka 8 Nations

Post by big mervyn » Sat Nov 21, 2020 9:16 pm

I think Farrell is a bit thick. I used to think it was a cultivated veneer of down to earth Northernness but no ... he's a bit thick.
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Re: Autumn Nations Cup aka 8 Nations

Post by justinr73 » Sat Nov 21, 2020 9:56 pm

Anyone still clamouring for Georgia to replace Italy in the 6N?

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Re: Autumn Nations Cup aka 8 Nations

Post by Lurgan Lad » Sat Nov 21, 2020 10:11 pm

Definitely chips are there to be had against such an aggressive rush defense, alright they aren't always going to be successful but the alternative of running straight into a wall is worse. Funny the closer we get to the line the less likely we are to score as the space disappears.

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Re: Autumn Nations Cup aka 8 Nations

Post by big mervyn » Sat Nov 21, 2020 10:13 pm

Dharper wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 7:16 pm
Don’t forget with the best strike rate in Irish rugby history Merv.
BOD got his 18th in match 35. He didn't get no. 19 until match 45.
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Re: Autumn Nations Cup aka 8 Nations

Post by Dharper » Sat Nov 21, 2020 10:41 pm

Looking forward to the review of Keenan in the media, if that was Stockdale at 15 he’d be slaughtered for the errors made.

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Re: Autumn Nations Cup aka 8 Nations

Post by Jetstream » Sat Nov 21, 2020 10:49 pm

Dublin4 wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:12 pm
Men against boys and shocking lineout. England could tackle all night and win.

Positives: Doris, Keenan, Ross Byrne and Farrell. And thank God there was no crowd to sing about the chariot.
In a year to forget, this was a match to forget. Roll on the vaccine.
You must have been watching a different match.
Ross Byrne was very poor and will never see another cap. Keenan was responsible for at least 1 try and was caught in possession for 2 penalties. He has good hands but showed nothing going forward. Farrell would run into a brick wall but can't and won't pass. He blew a try as well.
Doris had a solid game.

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Re: Autumn Nations Cup aka 8 Nations

Post by rumncoke » Sat Nov 21, 2020 11:54 pm

Said the team picked was one picked not to lose ( by much ) because it wasn't picked to win . The 5 meter line outs weren't to chase a win if the win was the number one priority then the penalties would have been kicked.

Keegan i identified was a player who at full back wouldn't lose you the game ( one try was down for to him ) ?? I wouldn't fault him totally for it because the kick was was an excellent one with I would say the attacker always favourite to gather due to the angle of approach.

So defensively I give Keegan 7 for defence but the truth is he adds nothing to the attack when compared to Stockdale.

Byrne I have always considered a close to average PRO14 out half but again the stick he is getting fails to recognise he was facing possibly the best 6Ns back row to-day and playing with an average centre partnership both players being better defenders than creative attackers.

His brother may be a better prospect
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Re: Autumn Nations Cup aka 8 Nations

Post by Dharper » Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:53 pm

So rte sport have Keenan as ire best player with 7.....

Hugo Keenan - 7

Retained at full-back ahead of the fit again Jacob Stockdale. Beaten in the air by May for England’s opening try, but generally coped well under huge pressure throughout.

One of Ireland’s brighter sparks, Keenan shipped some huge tackles and tried to make things happen in possession.

- For a start Earls was better.
I see issues going forward with him. He lacks bulk defensively (he’ll make tackles but player will get over the gainline), not sure he has the kick length- ever other fb in the 6ns has a 50m boot on them.
His 7s looking for space background is getting him isolated and easily turned over.

Early days but he’ll be a Conway utility back 3 player for me. Not the answer at FB for Ire.

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Re: Autumn Nations Cup aka 8 Nations

Post by germcevoy » Sun Nov 22, 2020 3:20 pm

Without watching it back Keenan took a few good high balls, should have did much better for the first try and his kicking was nowhere near as effective as Stockdale's. I'd be happy if they persisted with him at 15 a little longer if it meant Stockdale could get a bit of time on the wings again where he is much more potent than Conway and Earl's. Stockdale on one wing and Lowe on the other would have opposition defences a little bit worried.

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Re: Autumn Nations Cup aka 8 Nations

Post by WestDr » Sun Nov 22, 2020 3:45 pm

The 'sounds more and more like Les Kiss' comment is spot on. Michael Glennon's RTE piece is a lot more accurate - especially with EOS's comment of 'is there any chance of a game plan that might work here ?'

The difficulty I have (and have always had since Farrell's appointment) is that Ireland under Joe had a game plan. It did seem to revolve around Sexton at 10, lots of contact and rolling mauls to score tries. Well constructed, pre-planned and, to an extent, a little artificial. But very effective. Until some one worked out how to combat this Plan.

There appears to be two methods; (i) England's way - which is to front up defensively and just present a wall of defenders that are just too strong and too good at pressurising Ireland into poor/non-execution of their plan (cf Hendo's comments). Then, AB-like, pick off the mistakes. Or (b) the Japanese approach, which is to play with 15 men (not 10 with 1 bosher and 4 kick-chasers), re-cycle the ball quickly, spread it wide and do it all really fast (cf RWC 19 Group game). And defend well enough that the 'we'll score more than you' method is successful.

The outcome is that Ireland now seem to have no effective Plan A..... But Farrell appears to be trying to fit the old Plan A to new players without making too much of a change to the Plan itself cf Matt Williams Saturday IT column on England going after the 10 and then Itoje getting the ball receiver. Which would explain why Ross Byrne was playing so deep. But there seems little or no reflection from either the results of the RWC games v Japan and the ABs or previous games v England. Do Farrell and his team have it in them to come up with a new 'non-Joe S' plan - and a plan that isn't Leinster in green (since I'd say Sarries showed a way to deal with that one) ? Being 'more clinical' just won't cut it nor will specific player choices.

It's completely right to point out specific errors by specific players (e.g. Keenan being out-jumped by May), although what concerned me more was the utter lack of inevitability that Ireland would score from 5 yards out (i.e. Plan A would be effective), whether through the forwards or the backs. That's something new, and one I'd be very worried about as I don't see many other ways Ireland will score tries against the good teams (Eng, Fra, NZ and SA), especially with a midfield pair lacking Ringrose and as such subtlety, invention or handling skills.

Finally I see Gavin Cumiskey in the IT is, to my mind, on the more correct path in asking whether Farrell can provide a new game plan. I'd suggest that he has until the end of the 2021 6N, then he will be gone (along with Sexton who is absolutely not the answer for RWC23). Not because Ireland's 2023 World Cup chances are poor, but because the IRFU need the money from a full Aviva for both 6N and the autumn games (for the IRFU any success at a RWC is a complete bonus). The reality is that the event junkies who largely fill the Aviva for those games won't come and watch a losing team.

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solidarity
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Re: Autumn Nations Cup aka 8 Nations

Post by solidarity » Sun Nov 22, 2020 5:41 pm

Surprised that this has had only one mention: Ireland looked much better when the Ulster lads came on. I think Ireland 'won the second half'. I don't think this was due to England's replacements being rubbish or England turning off, although to be honest, I didn't really think that much of England. If I was Eddie Jones, I wouldn't be thrilled at the result. The Ulster lads did add something extra!

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Re: Autumn Nations Cup aka 8 Nations

Post by Lurgan Lad » Sun Nov 22, 2020 6:04 pm

Haven't really watched Byrne at OH much before, but reading a bit online they say he is a kicking out half. So it is interesting that we didn't really have a gameplan of any sort that played to his strengths. Having him deep and just shipping the ball on was never going to work, so either you play him and have tactics that play to his strengths or you get someone else in that position that plays the way you want to play.
It'll be interesting to see how other teams have success against England, generating quick ball, go forward ball and a great kicking game appear to be the solutions, it is just how you achieve that!

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Re: Autumn Nations Cup aka 8 Nations

Post by rumncoke » Sun Nov 22, 2020 7:09 pm

It’s not that Byrne is a kicking outhalf as such It basically comes down to the Leinster style — Dominating forwards playing for penalties and off penalties to gain access to the red zone inside the opposition 22 . It works provide the pack dominate .

Yesterday basically shows if you can’t dominate, getting in to the red zone is rather pointless . And you then need a little inventiveness or creativity in the backs .

England have now a couple of mobile back row players who make tackles with Itoje coming in over to block the recycle /create the non release/turnover — depending on the referee and position on the pitch.

Despite lying deep Ireland were taking static ball with centres facing a two man tackle.

At the moment I see only one Irish Back making the Lions - and that’s Stockdale .

Firstly he has the ability to score trys and secondly he has physical presence and thirdly he is able to play a number of positions which is a useful essential in a tour party .
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Re: Autumn Nations Cup aka 8 Nations

Post by justinr73 » Sun Nov 22, 2020 7:40 pm

Ringrose will be in the squad.

And Cooney, obviously.

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Re: Autumn Nations Cup aka 8 Nations

Post by Dharper » Sun Nov 22, 2020 9:18 pm

Well we need the Pro 14 to get in those top SA sides, as it’s not a competitive league esp when Int call ups effect Sco & Welsh sides and we aren’t exposed to this kick dominant power game unless in knock out games in Europe. The amount of league bp wins without really showing inventiveness or execution is worrying. In short term I’d definitely go full blooded in inter pros none of this Irfu mismatches - it risks injury however being physically “undercooked” is a recurring theme & we can’t afford to lose out real competitive games.

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