Declan Kidney – the amazing diminishing rugby coach

[BaggyTrousers]

Looking at Kidneys tenure the 3 best games we have played were against England to spoil their slam , Australia in the world cup and the All Blacks in the recent 2nd test.
People who say we have not the players or talent should watch those games again where we played some of the best stuff in any era I care to recall.
What do all those performances have in common?
In each of those games the Ireland team had been completely written off by all quarters prior to the match .

Jazzbeg, that is a reasonable point but I don't find it entirely convincing. England are not a team we have feared over the last decade indeed the record has been remarkable both home & away.

Indeed we weren't the no hopers you portray, we had just squeezed the win in Italy, lost by 3 to France because Cronin couldn't hold a pass for the winning try, beaten Scotland narrowly away & been robbed blind in Cardiff to Referee Kaplan's major blunder. Coming to England we had scores to settle because through that season our games all hung on a knife edge & actually a Grand Slam wasn't all that far away, like 2009 teh games were all close, then we came out on the right side in each, not in 2011.

v England

Earls, Bowe, Bod, D'Arcy, Trimble, Sexton, Reddan, Healy, Best, Ross, DOC, POC, SOB, Wallace, Heaslip.

Similarly, of the Tri-Nations teams by far our best record is against OZ, we have also played them often in RWCs and many have been close run things, so there is no fear factor. This was just as impressive in its way as the more or less complete performance that blew England away.

V Australia RWC

Kearney, Bowe, O'Driscoll, D'Arcy, Earls, Sexton, Reddan; Healy, Best, Ross, O'Callaghan, O'Connell, Ferris, O'Brien, Heaslip.


For me this was the most surprising of the 3 games, certainly we were absolutely written off. In the other two we had close to our best 15 available starting. This one a very different matter. A massive effort by a team without maybe 3 of our best at that time: Bowe, Ferris & POC. Perhaps it just shows the fine margins we operate under, when 3 big names perhaps is the difference between winning & coming close - plus of course Dan Carter.

V All Blacks

Kearney, McFadden, O'Driscoll, D'Arcy, Trimble, Sexton, Murray, Heaslip, O'Brien, McLaughlin, Ryan, Touhy, Ross, Best, Healy.

I think these games actually point to our potential when we can get 80% or more of our finest on the pitch rather than how we act as underdogs.

[ronk]

Looking at Kidneys tenure the 3 best games we have played were against England to spoil their slam , Australia in the world cup and the All Blacks in the recent 2nd test.
People who say we have not the players or talent should watch those games again where we played some of the best stuff in any era I care to recall.
What do all those performances have in common?
In each of those games the Ireland team had been completely written off by all quarters prior to the match .
This is clearly down to a mind set issue not an ability one.
Each individual in a green shirt increased their levels of intensity and performance that seemed virtually unthinkable before the kick off.
We should be looking at why they cannot consistantly replicate these type of performances at international level from the same players who regularly do it for their clubs.
Why does it take us to be written off in order for players to up their game only when playing for Ireland?
To me it has to be down to coaching and managing the players with a game plan and a comfortable enviroment to produce a mind set within the side allowing them to express themselves on the pitch.
The main comment I agree with is that Kidney should have had the job years ago as his methods are clearly not for the modern day.

You could have replaced Kidney with an inanimate carbon rod and we might have won those games. The gameplan becomes less important when you're man-shaming your opposition at every juncture.

[bazzaj]

Saved me the trouble of looking at the teams in those games Baggy.
I will stick to my point though that strong Irish teams on paper have performed lamentably under DK thinking Scotland 2010 at home,2011 Italy away,or against the USA in the World cup are as bad as it gets against poor opposition.
It can only be a mind set as those Irish sides were of similar strength to any of those sides you have listed above in those superb performances.

[BaggyTrousers]

Saved me the trouble of looking at the teams in those games Baggy.
I will stick to my point though that strong Irish teams on paper have performed lamentably under DK thinking Scotland 2010 at home,2011 Italy away,or against the USA in the World cup are as bad as it gets against poor opposition.
It can only be a mind set as those Irish sides were of similar strength to any of those sides you have listed above in those superb performances.

Jazzbeg, unsurprisingly I too will stick to my point. So here is my counter-argument, you see that's what us arguers call, "a counter-argument."

Scotland 2010 was a complete disaster, there was pressure upon pressure to put on a show as it was the final game at Croker. Everyone down south of the border was talking about how they needed to put on a show as a thank you to the GAA, even the gnome was piling unneeded pressure on the team. All bullshit, I'm sure the GAA didn;t give a toss as long as they got the rent money.

So what happened, they went out & threw the ball about without paying the Scots any compliment by taking them seriously & though there was an early try Scotland thought, to hell with this and ground out a victory that was absolutely their due & a comeuppance to a ridiculously naive approach from the over-confident Irish who got exactly what they deserved and blew a simple chance to back up the GS with at least a triple crown.

Italy away 2011, I'd say only this, Italy first up have traditionally been at their best, their resources are not used up through injury & all their top players exhausted from over use. Even Kiddinya has often rested a few in the 3rd or 4th game, whichever is against the worst team.

Finally the USA, I'm not quite sure what you refer to, the team were far from convincing but won without any great hiccups on a pretty vile day from memory, a very late score from Ulsterman Emerick on the last play for USA gilding the score a little for them - 22-10.

What I certainly agree with is that Ireland have too often struggled against pish & particularly in RWCs where Ireland are seldom anything but crap. I largely discount the RWC by the way, we aren't ever going to win it.

[rocky]

Guys, I think it's entirely reasonable to debate the causes of our current ineptitude as well as the possible options but for me, it boils down to a single issue and that issue is not a new one.
It is the fact that a number of players, match after match, perform well for their province but, when they don a green (or black ) jersey, their performance takes a nosedive. Indeed, I can think of only a few whose performances for Ireland come close to the quality of their performances in the Heineken for example. Arguably, they are Kearney, Bowe, BOD, Best and Healy. There may be others, but not many.
It is this fact that leads to the poor to abject performances that we all have witnessed over the last few years, I believe. It is true that Irish rugby teams have been dreadfully inconsistent for a long time but it is doubtful that we ever before had such an array of talent as we have had recently. We have always had occasional flashes of brilliance, sometimes whole series that were brilliant, but I suspect the same applies to most sports teams.
The question then is - "Why do our players perform less well for Ireland?"
For me, there can only be one answer and that is coaching. I accept that leadership on the pitch may be a factor (as on Saturday past, for example) but coaching must be the major factor - that includes everything from nutrition, through strength and conditioning, through player "management", both physically and mentally, to coaching of playing the game.
I believe this has been done poorly recently, although I admit that I'm not sure about the reasons for this. I do not think it is a lack of effort from those who occupy the positions. I know our people who cover nutrition, strength, conditioning, injury prevention and management are some of the best around BUT some on this board perceive a problem in that our players are not big enough. I know that we have been lacking a S&C coach since the last incumbent left several months ago but I think that he has been replaced recently. I know that we have been lacking a backs coach and maybe a scrum coach recently and there has been double-jobbing - never a good thing. It is also said that there is interference from the IRFU people in terms of some aspects, even up to team selection. If so, that is appalling, I think. In addition, I have heard stories that strongly suggest there is a serious problem with person management, especially within those players outside the "core group."
On the pitch, there is evidence, it seems to me, that the style of rugby we are playing was discarded by the other teams several years ago - whether or not this is due to poor coaching or players' skill levels or both is uncertain to me.
The point is, it seems to me that our problems are related to the current set-up, from the top (IRFU blazers) down and the situation is unlikely to change unless and until there is a fundamental change in the whole mechanism of managing the national squad. The change that is probably the easiest to achieve as well as the most important is the coaching set-up and that is where I believe the start should come and, frankly, the sooner, the better.
I apologise for the ramble, but I have never left Lansdowne feeling so "cheated" if you like. It will take a lot to get me back there and that makes me feel bad.
Thank the mythical supreme being for Ulster

[skiboo]

I think the trend of criticism towards the coaching structure and the coach hits the nail on the head.
Reflect on the Ulster team of last season. If faced with a loss of say Ferris Henry Best and our overseas contingent most of us could not see a way forward or any potential to win a match.
This year are we concerned as much,have the replacement personnel really substantially changed? I don't think so but the coach has changed the man management in the team has changed and there are a bunch of players on the pitch enjoying every minute being there.
Compare that to the Ireland team of today. How could for instance Trimble enjoy playing outside a center who can't hold down a centers position for his Province and who can't pass. How motivated can Touhy be knowing he is playing regularly at a higher level than those picked one of whom again has difficulty hold down a position with his Province. How does Ross feel about waiting around for a number of years until the deckchair finally folded and now sees a prop parachuted in without ever having played a game in Ireland.
The only way the IRFU will be encouraged to address the issues which are apparent to most people is when the fans of Ireland start to leave even bigger gaps in the stadium.

[BaggyTrousers]

I think the trend of criticism towards the coaching structure and the coach hits the nail on the head.
Reflect on the Ulster team of last season. If faced with a loss of say Ferris Henry Best and our overseas contingent most of us could not see a way forward or any potential to win a match.
This year are we concerned as much,have the replacement personnel really substantially changed? I don't think so but the coach has changed the man management in the team has changed and there are a bunch of players on the pitch enjoying every minute being there.
Compare that to the Ireland team of today. How could for instance Trimble enjoy playing outside a center who can't hold down a centers position for his Province and who can't pass. How motivated can Touhy be knowing he is playing regularly at a higher level than those picked one of whom again has difficulty hold down a position with his Province. How does Ross feel about waiting around for a number of years until the deckchair finally folded and now sees a prop parachuted in without ever having played a game in Ireland.
The only way the IRFU will be encouraged to address the issues which are apparent to most people is when the fans of Ireland start to leave even bigger gaps in the stadium.

Skiboo, I have a lot of time for almost all of that, other than the Mike Ross bit unless you are talking exclusively about Buckley for I can't abide a bad word about the liginderry Bull, who went past his sell by date only because there was a nadir reached regarding potential replacements.

More importantly, with a post as considered as that, why oh why have you only posted 4 times in 3 years? Join in man, you've got things to say.

[Rooster]

On the pitch, there is evidence, it seems to me, that the style of rugby we are playing was discarded by the other teams several years ago - whether or not this is due to poor coaching or players' skill levels or both is uncertain to me.

Can't be the skill levels as Both the Leinster and Ulster players pare playing a similar fast moving game, Munster are heading down that route as well yet Ireland are still in first gear going backwards down a slippery slope.
Need a full new coaching team with a hard nosed barsteward coach who will tell the blazers to count the beans and leave him alone

[bazzaj]

Here is my take on DKs tenure.
Came in and initiated a basic Munster style game plan following the end chaos of the previous EOS regime. DK was what the side needed at the time, someone to steady the ship.Unfortunately the game has evolved since then without DK evolving the tactics.
A Munster style game plan is good against opposition you can dominate up front as it is pressure based.That is why we struggle traditionally against France as they are usually too physical up front to dominate.

He has failed to acknowledge that the balance of power has shifted from Munster to Leinster in Europe.Its fair enough to implement a Munster style game plan when they were top dogs but to pick Leinster players and make them play a Munster style is ridiculous and accounts for these players being unable to replicate club form.

The main reason we have no depth to our squad is because DK has not developed one.As an example, when Gatland was developing Tupuric giving him the odd game here and there grooming him as back up to Warbuton, DK was doing the same with Mick ODriscoll as our second row cover. Enough said.

He also sticks with his favourites regardless of any form at any level and refuses to acknowledge that our back row combination does not work without trying anything different at any time, barring injury enforced selections.

I do not believe that ROG influence in the squad has been a positive one on Sexton and his very presence has undermined him.I could not imagine a Wilkinson or Carter being continually shifted to 12 to accomodate Hodgson or Cruden.Your 10 is the team quarter back and should be given entire trust and responsiblity as MA has done with PJ. Keatley and Madigan should have been put in before now.

His tactics are also inflexIble.
Prime example of this was during the WC QF when DK told his men to go out and play same again which had worked.Gatland looked at what Ireland had been doing and devised a plan specifically for that game which was to cut our big forward runners down at their knees at source and have a man over the ball straight away.We did not react to what they were doing and went out with a whimper.

We have played exceptionally well in 3 games during his tenure as I posted earlier but I suspect those performances were player driven with a desperate nothing to lose attitude as we saw with France and England in previous World Cups.It demonstrates it is in us to play good rugby but we need a coach and management system that can bring this out regularly and consistantly.There may be other factors for this not happening but I would repeat that if Gatland was our coach we would not be discussing anything of this nature.

[rumncoke]

Kidney ,like EoS before him , doesn't dictate a game plan rather style which is common in International Rugby-low risk-containment -- on the bases that the team which makes the fewest mistakes will win. In pursuit of this style he of game he has a relatively fixed type of player in mind-abrasive-pace — power. Which enforces a low risk selection policy.

This player preference is such that he tends to pick players out of position to accommodate those he trusts and favours, he has a strong belief in the abrasiveness of Munster rugby to the point that players weaknesses are ignored.

This selection process of course creates a closeness amongst the players and a loyalty to the coach that can hinder the enlargement of the squad. For example one has the impression that Tommy Bowe is accepted as" one of the boys" but that Trimble has always been" on the outside looking in" as was N.Best. Thus when a change was considered these were the players to be sent to the bench.

I won't say its a fact but it is a strong impression given by the selections made in the past by both EoS and DK

[Mac]

Kidney time................ http://kidneyclock.net/

What time is it.........jpg (37.05 KiB) Viewed 1212 times

[rocky]

I found this article in yesterday's Irish Independent. I nearly had a stroke.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/a ... 01367.html

Basically, it says that Foley may get the full-time defence coaching role IF Declan Kidney gets a n extension to beyond the next world cup.
This depends on our result vs the Argies on Saturday but, if we win, the suggestion is that the IRFU may well consider extending his contract for another two years!!!

[Scranner]

Well that's just silly. Even those twats at D4 must be able to see that Kidney is no longer the man for the job. Ireland needs a coach who is up on the modern game, a coach who will attempt to emulate the SH game. Look at the benefits this has brought to Ulster in just a few months and to Leinster over the last few years. I despair.

[rumncoke]

The only thing that will make DK move is the retirement of a few more players --

Anyone who thinks a change of coach will change the way Ireland play has a lot to learn .

It may change a couple of players but not the manner in which Ireland play

Why is T Court being sidelined easy come 2015 he'll be 35 M .Ross 36 BoD 36 D'Arcy 35 PoC 36 DoC 36 McCarthy will be 34

Too many players require to be replaced and combinations forged while DK has blooded some, his major problem is loyalty to the old hand and his unwillingness to trust younger players which could cause in D4 rather than the type of game Ireland play .

[Neil F]

This selection process of course creates a closeness amongst the players and a loyalty to the coach that can hinder the enlargement of the squad. For example one has the impression that Tommy Bowe is accepted as" one of the boys" but that Trimble has always been" on the outside looking in" as was N.Best. Thus when a change was considered these were the players to be sent to the bench.

In some respects, I agree with this but I think putting this on a player level isn't quite correct. My personal interpretation of the selections of both O'Sullivan and Kidney is that both operated under a mentality that there are two types of professional rugby player in Ireland. Those who are good enough to play international rugby and those that are not. At different times, both Neil Best and Andrew Trimble were deemed good enough - both players sat on the Ireland bench when their form barely merited provincial selection.

The issue seems to be that, in the eyes of both of these coaches, players only cease to be capable of playing international rugby when they retire. The only two players in recent times I can think of, for whom this wasn't the case, are Mick O'Driscoll and Malcolm O'Kelly, both of whom did lose their international places before retirement, although it seems like O'Callaghan is going that way (although is still regarded as the fourth best lock in the country...). Compare this, however, to the continued selections of Easterby, Corrigan, Stringer, O'Gara, D'Arcy, Leamy et al.; all of whom had expired as international players long before their international careers came to an end.

The big problem here is that it results in guys, no matter how well they place for their provinces, just not really being considered for international rugby. Dan Tuohy comes to mind, here; it seems clear that, regardless of what he does in an Ulster shirt, Tuohy isn't regarded as good enough for international rugby. Kidney's selections rank Tuohy as the fifth best lock in Ireland, whilst his form labels him, probably, as the best, for example. The same, despite this weekend's selection, goes for Gilroy. Nothing Gilroy has done in an Ulster shirt labelled him as an international in the eyes of Kidney. Indeed, even now that Gilroy has been brought it, this change reminds me of O'Sullivan bringing in Trimble for Hickie against France at the 2007 World Cup. A token change that utterly fails to account for where the real failings have been. Perhaps, more so, a token change that brings in a player who, despite Ireland missing at least two first-choice backline players, didn't make the original squad, suggesting that even this change may not have occurred under "normal" circumstances.

The big problem to me seems to be that players are labelled as being good enough for international rugby at a very young age in Ireland and they are persisted with, no matter what their international or provincial form shows. I doubt this would create an "us and them" mentality amongst players who simply want to win and perform but it does profoundly limit the options of coaches and goes some way to explaining why; Ireland's second choice fullback is a winger, Ireland's second choice inside centre is a fly-half and Ireland's second choice outside centre is a winger. It also seems to explain why Ireland's second choice fly-half is a fairly off form 35 year-old, the second-choice scrum-half is a 32 year-old international never-was and why the preferred backrow is made up of two 6's and an 8; and why the fallback in case of injury is to bring in another 6 for whomever is injured and move the others around as necessary.

Don't get me wrong; there are Irish players who I don't believe are up to playing international rugby but there are a lot more who are, or at least could be, capable of playing in a serious and meaningful test match than have been routinely, or favourably, selected in recent times.