Declan Kidney – the amazing diminishing rugby coach

[Shan]

So D/L - Of the REALISTIC options, who do you think should get the job???

Come on Bart. That isn't how it works. Surely we just wait and no matter who is placed in situ, whether he is from Ireland, has connections with Ireland, is from the SH or is from another galaxy he will be subjected to claims of bias as soon as he names somebody we don't like in his first squad.

[Snipe Watson]

I fecking knew you'd be bumping this thread D/L ya big sack sniffer. I reckon you must have destroyed your trousers when you received this news.


Gwan for feck sake.

You're on a roll tonight pal!

[darkside lightside]

So D/L - Of the REALISTIC options, who do you think should get the job???

I'm delighted that Schmidt got the job, a little surprised he took it, given what he had said previously, but great news IMO. I would have been happy with Ewan McKenzie getting the job - or a DoR type like O'Shea, McCall (or even Humph!!)

Tbh, I would have taken anyone ahead of Kidney. Literally anyone. Tony McGahan. Matt Williams & Willie Anderson. Michael Bradley. Tony Buckley. Winker Watson. Donna Traynor.

Well ok, not Michael Bradley.

I exaggerate but Kidney has been a complete disaster for a generation of Irish players. I hope Schmidt can breath new life into the side, preferably without his traditional Leinster slow start!

[BaggyTrousers]

So D/L - Of the REALISTIC options, who do you think should get the job???

I'm delighted that Schmidt got the job, a little surprised he took it, given what he had said previously, but great news IMO. I would have been happy with Ewan McKenzie getting the job - or a DoR type like O'Shea, McCall (or even Humph!!)

Tbh, I would have taken anyone ahead of Kidney. Literally anyone. Tony McGahan. Matt Williams & Willie Anderson. Michael Bradley. Tony Buckley. Winker Watson. Donna Traynor.

Well ok, not Michael Bradley.

I exaggerate but Kidney has been a complete disaster for a generation of Irish players. I hope Schmidt can breath new life into the side, preferably without his traditional Leinster slow start!

Bullshit as usual for a man so limited in imagination that a three year gap between starting an celebrating a wonderful guess that a coach would eventually be sacked came true.

You still sicken my shyte with your bilious bullshit, why don't you take a longer break before returning. Maybe a three year term like your pathetic "prediction" - now go on with you, you fecking vermin.

[Snipe Watson]

Bullshit as usual for a man so limited in imagination that a three year gap between starting an celebrating a wonderful guess that a coach would eventually be sacked came true.

You still sicken my shyte with your bilious bullshit, why don't you take a longer break before returning. Maybe a three year term like your pathetic "prediction" - now go on with you, you fecking vermin.

I would have to call that a sterling effort with an exceptionally high vitriol count, but it falls a tad short of Shan’s: “I fecking knew you'd be bumping this thread D/L ya big sack sniffer. I reckon you must have destroyed your trousers when you received this news. Gwan for feck sake.”

[BaggyTrousers]

I try to please Snipe, think that's as much vitriol as I've managed in a while. I did enjoy Shan's bit but thought that as I'd missed DL's first comeback I shouldn't let today's effort go unmarked.

[Shan]

He's still fecking at it. Kidney is gone. Time to leave sleeping dogs lie.

Mind you he'll probably be back later to tell us he is revising his opinion of Schmidt when he realises that Joe actually does not have a magic wand.

That said I am fully behind Schmidt and hope such a revision is not necessary.

[BaggyTrousers]

He's still fecking at it. Kidney is gone. Time to leave sleeping dogs lie.

Mind you he'll probably be back later to tell us he is revising his opinion of Schmidt when he realises that Joe actually does not have a magic wand.

That said I am fully behind Schmidt and hope such a revision is not necessary.

Me too Shan, I have expectations of Joe, Deccie I think eventually was just repeating the same things to some players he had coached for more than a decade. Shelf-life over, but still a man with a great record as a coach and one who I think may well have got more than 1 grand slam had he had that group of players for several years before they started tipping over the hill rather than 1 or at most 2 years.

As for Joe, I kind of fear for him, may do okay for a year until he loses BOD & maybe POC, then he will be using words like "transition" & no, Harry Potter he feckin' ain't.

As for DL - expelliamous

[Neil F]

That said I am fully behind Schmidt and hope such a revision is not necessary.

I'm going to say something controversial, here.

My gut reaction, when Kidney took over the Ireland job, was that he would win something very quickly and Ireland would struggle after that because Kidney had no real experience building teams. He was lucky to inherit a reasonably established Munster team and did well with them. He left and came back to a largely changed but settled team who he took to new heights. He did the same with Ireland. When change and building were required, Kidney singularly failed and Ireland's performances tailed off.

Schmidt is, largely, in the same boat - he inherited a very established Leinster side from Cheika; his major influence was in changing how that group of players played, for the most part.

Ireland are at a time of major transition. By the end of Schmidt's contract, O'Driscoll will be gone and O'Connell will be gone but these are not the only changes that need to be made. I am equally concerned about Schmidt's ability to develop as Kidney's because Schmidt has never had to do it as a head coach.

I'm not pre-judging; Schmidt is not Kidney and I'm not saying their tenures will pan out the same way but I don't quite buy into this blind optimism about what Schmidt brings because of the short-term success and the excellent rugby he brought to Leinster over a rather short period of time. Unlike Kidney, I don't believe Schmidt is inheriting an Ireland team with the intrinsic ability to deliver a grandslam but who had, somehow, failed to do so. The current XV / 23 players available to Ireland isn't good enough, compared to other nations, to do that in my opinion. I'd, therefore, have preferred Ireland to have selected a coach to deliver long-term growth and the chance to compete again in a few years. I fear Schmidt's appointment may turn out to be a bit of IRFU short-termism; an attempt to eke out current success, not to build a meaningful future challenge.

[bazzaj]

I would accept any success short term or otherwise Neil, as Irish supporters we cant afford to be choosey.
As for the players and the talent coming through I think its exciting times.
I remember thinking Mick Galway was irreplaceable then POC steps in.
The same with Denis Hickey and Tommy Bowe comes along.
Not saying that POC or BOD will be readily replaced but there will be lads all too willing to step into their shoes and Schmidt will empower them to get the best out of them as thats what he does.
As with the Welsh, the more exposure and trust put in these young guys at that level, the better they become and I think and have always thought that Schmidt is the right man to deliver.
He has done it everywhere else he has been.
No one can ever be certain as to how things will turn out as with Moyes at Man U for example but with Schmidt we have the right man to give us the best possible chance.

[Neil F]

Bazz, I think what worries me is that a continued focus on short-termism will turn Ireland into what Scotland have been in the professional era. Always looked like a team that could do something, and doing it on occasion and having enough decent players to run most teams close but were also limited enough to never be able to recreate it on a consistent basis. Hence the flurry of woodenspoons and almost-woodenspoons the Scots have had to suffer through, despite producing some very top-quality individuals.

I think, like most, I am incredibly excited by some of the talent coming through at Ulster, let alone Ireland. The prospect of Gilroy, Zebo, Olding, Marshall, Madigan et al. cutting loose fills me with great excitement. The problem is that it's debatable of any of those players are first-choice Ireland players - certainly, none are entirely established as such. If Ireland go hunting glory in the short-term, I'm not convinced many of them well be by the end of Schmidt's current contract, if the aim is to seek short-term glory, yet in five years, Ireland would be much stronger if they were established in the near-future, given what they will offer over the long-term.

In that respect, as I said above, I'd rather have the coach with the proven track record of developing competitive sides, not one of getting the best out of settled sides.

[Shan]

Neil,

I'll give you one thing, you are as consistent as f-ck. Probably more than anybody else on the forum. Looking back to before Kidney took over you said the exact same thing about his non-record in building a team.

One other thing you said that time was that one of your reasons for concern is because Kidney was nobody's choice, a default choice basically because there was nobody else. How do you feel on this point with Schmidt. It woud appear to me he is better received in general across the land and further afield where Paddies roam.


Now time for me to say something not really controversial. I don't think the IRFU want to bring in somebody who is going to build a team. The IRFU know their audience. People in general are not interested in the long term. It is all about the here and now. We have this thought about the long term....."what if something else changes down the road to scupper your plans and you are left with f-ck all, better to win something now.....better to eat now and worry about your next meal later." etc etc. That is the typical Irish mentality and coming from a country which has never enjoyed a sustained period of success(not sporting) it is an understandable thing in many ways. The IRFU know who pays their over-inflated wages and that those folks are not particularly interested in paying to watch a team build gradually. It is hard enough to convince Irish supporters to fill the stadium as it is. The more building you engage in the less likely you will be to win in the short term.

Of course I know the old "you build by adding a couple here, a couple there and bed 'em in" That is pretty much horsesh1t though and we all know that. Any of the teams, outside NZ who are in build mode have had to sacrifice at least one season and more often 3 seasons minimum to build to where they are competitive again. Even the might of England took 8 years to hit the high note again after their 2003 triumph and the building started there in 2004 after the fall of the greatest NH team in recent history. The IRFU wouldn't have that. They'd sacrifice that for an auld triple crown to keep the paddies happy, singing and spending.


This is an Irish issue as far as I would be concerned. It wouldn't even matter which clown was running the IRFU. They can't escape the mentality and the economic reality of that. You can see the Munster crowds go downhill since the decline started, Leinster couldn't get a 4 figure crowd until the win the H Cup and Ulster likewise have seen and will see crowd increases the more the team improve and challenge. There will alway be a hardcore who will come and want to see things run properly with long term strategy in mind but it is the others who are the difference to the money men as they have to be attracted to part with their notes. In essence Irish people are not really spectators in the same way as other countries. They will turn up for a good show etc. Irish people dicatate the policy of the IRFU through the opening, or otherwise, of their wallets and purses.

[shamalicious]

Fair points well made Neil. The big question is, is Schmidt brave enough to build for the longer term at the risk of not having any short term success?

[bazzaj]

Neil,so long as the development is in evidence even at the expense of the odd result, people will be happy enough considering the current shambles witnessed.
Just like Lancaster at England who were in a similar place post World Cup except he only had initally a season in which to do it.
The problem with DK was that he neither developed players or a game plan during his tenure to any extent.
Schmidt is a different animal and has a track record of doing both so I dont see the issue.

[Gael]

Well the blazers will not want to him build slowly - so if he does defy them and inevitably the W's don't come in immediately, they will drop their instructions to Thornley and co to take him down in the meeja and then they'll sack him after a year and a half for being a bad coach with the support of the semi-interested supporter.