Declan Kidney – the amazing diminishing rugby coach

[Gael]

Good point Shan

[BaggyTrousers]

The re-emergence of this thread is simply a sickening further attempt at self-congratulations by the same evil spirit who appears to glory in every set back for both Ireland & the coach.

I have made my own feelings clear this week on a couple of threads & will not dignify the clown's nauseating attempt to set himself up as some kind of soothsayer. The writing has been on this particular wall for some time. We don't need some revolting crowing by a clown at an Ireland defeat, makes me sick to my stomach.

As quite a few have said, whoever the next coach is will have some job on their hands, we have so many problem areas that I doubt the world's finest will be heading the queue, John Kirwan excepted of course.

[Russ]

The re-emergence of this thread is simply a sickening further attempt at self-congratulations by the same evil spirit who appears to glory in every set back for both Ireland & the coach.

I have made my own feelings clear this week on a couple of threads & will not dignify the clown's nauseating attempt to set himself up as some kind of soothsayer. The writing has been on this particular wall for some time. We don't need some revolting crowing by a clown at an Ireland defeat, makes me sick to my stomach.

As quite a few have said, whoever the next coach is will have some job on their hands, we have so many problem areas that I doubt the world's finest will be heading the queue, John Kirwan excepted of course.

I only managed to catch the first half yesterday as I had a work engagement to head over to, but boy I was shocked at how the Irish team was playing!

I thought an upset might have been on the cards, and I was actually a little upset to read how we capitulated in the second half.

I think John Kirwan has already called the IRFU to say he is interested!

It's the interviews he gives which particularly frustrate me, yes you were a school teacher, but stop trying to educate the masses. We can all see the team is not performing, for one reason or another, your positive educational spin is mind dumbingly boring - this is a rant at Kidney, not at Baggy

[BaggyTrousers]

If you were his script writer Russ & others, what would you have had him say about the rugby***? Keep in mind that this latest c
defeat comes on the back of humiliation in England and three defeats all, very different in nature in NZ. Not the easiest gig I suggest.


*** the rules of this game preclude a trite "I resign", its what you would say about the performance I want to know.

[Russ]

If you were his script writer Russ & others, what would you have had him say about the rugby***? Keep in mind that this latest c
defeat comes on the back of humiliation in England and three defeats all, very different in nature in NZ. Not the easiest gig I suggest.


*** the rules of this game preclude a trite "I resign", its what you would say about the performance I want to know.

It's a difficult one to answer, especially given this PR age where everything that is said, is heavily scrutinised.

He knows we were not good enough, we know we were not good enough, but it would be refreshing to hear some honesty.

He "rues the power of South Africa" - being honest here he could say, we are not big or strong enough to compete with backs and forwards of their size, so we need to develop a new strategy to cope when faced with this challenge

I don't want him to start singling out players for scrutiny, however, an admittance of our failings and some form of hope for how they will be overcome would be nice.

As I say, some honesty, we are not dynamic enough in our forward play, we are not running hard enough to fix players in our attacking play, we are lacking in basic skills to achieve what we want to achieve AND this is what we will work to fix in training this week, so judge us on the performance at the end of the 3rd game as we are trying to build for the future

I think Kidney knows that he should resign, but resigning is below the man, he doesn't appear to me a man who shirks a challenge and gives in, but the IRFU need to seriously consider the alternatives.

[BaggyTrousers]

I'd be seriously surprised if some blazer hasn't already been appointed to check how the land lies with the usual suspects.

Mark Anscombe & others

Problem is that when he does anything other than the usual mumbo jumbo amounting to nothing, he can only step into the area of blaming players collectively or individually.

I think in a way I respect him for not using the blatantly obvious, i.e. without that many of our best players we are extremely limited and that most of the guys who played did reasonably well but simply weren't good enough against a powerful enough but very limited SA.

Here is a very novel thought. Could it be possible that Kidney does not interfere sufficiently with who the provinces play in certain positions? He then finds himself not knowing whether Luke Marshall could cope at 12 for example?

There is no way around the simple fact that we are incredibly badly off for a 9, and I'd suggest 12 & 13, plus of course very limited strength all across the front row. I'd also suggest that Ryan is decent beside a big good 2nd row but not McCarthy, no matter how worthy both of their efforts were yesterday. The back row was completely ineffective once the heat came on.

In short, I have been saying for a couple of years that their are bleak times ahead. They have arrived big time & I doubt that there is the talent in the worrying positions to reverse it any time soon. What is clear is that it is time for changes root & branch, players like DOC who are not good enough to start have no place on the bench, new blood please.

[Neil F]

There is no way around the simple fact that we are incredibly badly off for a 9, and I'd suggest 12 & 13, plus of course very limited strength all across the front row. I'd also suggest that Ryan is decent beside a big good 2nd row but not McCarthy, no matter how worthy both of their efforts were yesterday. The back row was completely ineffective once the heat came on.

In short, I have been saying for a couple of years that their are bleak times ahead. They have arrived big time & I doubt that there is the talent in the worrying positions to reverse it any time soon. What is clear is that it is time for changes root & branch, players like DOC who are not good enough to start have no place on the bench, new blood please.

Baggy, in some respects I agree with you - but I don't think it's simply a case of "bleak times"; the whole structure of professional rugby in Ireland, for the last five or six years, has brought the national team to the situation it is in now. The problems Ireland face are not just related to the natural ebbs and flows of talent. The performance of the provinces in recent seasons suggest that playing talent isn't a problem. It's the inappropriate harnessing and selection of that talent, poor management and general (fiscal?) conservatism from the IRFU and successive coaches.

This structure seems, now, to suffer from a general malaise; "we've tried nothing and we are all out of ideas." No more does this seem so obvious than national team selection. You're right - 12 and 13 are weaknesses. Yet, there are guys who play these positions, who play them well, for their province who simply aren't being given a shot in the international set up. Again, "we've tried nothing and we're all out of ideas." Not everyone who plays international rugby has to be a superstar for the team to function or to be successful. You just need guys who are good enough. Ireland don't need a talismanic outside centre to replace O'Driscoll; just someone good enough to play that position. I don't know if Cave, for example, is good enough to play 13 at international level but I've seen nothing to suggest that he certainly isn't good enough. If he isn't selected, however, we'll never know.

Ireland aren't blessed with international standard 9's right now but then, at no point in the professional era has this been the case. Stringer was just about good enough but the team around him made it work. In a similar vein, there's no reason why the rest of the team around Murray, Reddan or whoever can't work around the weakness at 9. Not every player needs to be a superstar but there seems to be a prevailing logic in Irish rugby that they do. This is why fading lights have been held onto for so long, if you ask me. There's a prevailing belief that some players simply aren't good enough to play international rugby and so, those who were considered to have been good enough at some point in the past, continue to be selected long after their light has faded, even when an average journeyman has become a better option.

D'Arcy and O'Callaghan are the pair that I'd focus on right now but they aren't the only examples - Leamy, in recent times; O'Kelly throughout the last world cup, even though the poor guy looked tired coming on as a substitute; Quinlan up until a few seasons ago. Stringer until not so long ago. O'Gara, now. The truth is that, under O'Sullivan, a whole generation of "nearlys", who would have done an international job, were left out and the same has happened under Kidney - players like Cave or Henry, who are fantastic at provincial level but maybe just lack that little something to make them a special player at international level, have largely missed out. These guys might not produce miracles on an international pitch but they seem capable of doing something of a job, if their provincial performances or anything to go by.

I think the difference between Kidney and O'Sullivan is that O'Sullivan, whilst bad, took too long to bring in the best players, he eventually did. He eventually selected Heaslip, about a season too late. Ditto Kearney. Ditto Bowe. Kidney seems entirely unwilling to do so, however. I wonder, for example, if there is anyone on this island who believe that there are four Irish locks better than Dan Tuohy that isn't selecting the Ireland side? Tuohy might not be a Victor Matfield or even a Paul O'Connell but he's an option and he'll do a job; like O'Callaghan has done before. Cave might not be an O'Driscoll or a Mortlock, but again, he could do the job.

I think this is where Irish rugby is falling down - it is not that there aren't options available that could come together to make a decent side, it is that they aren't being selected now because they aren't as good as other players once were. If you think about what a first-choice Ireland XV would look like, if the genuinely best players were selected and fit, the weaknesses don't really seem so apparent - they can be regarded as limitations. The kind Wales have managed to build around in recent times.

15. Kearney; 14. Bowe; 13. Cave; 12. O'Driscoll; 11. Earls; 10. Sexton; 9. Murray
1. Healy; 2. Best; 3. Ross; 4. Tuohy; 5. O'Connell; 6. Ferris; 7. Henry; 8. O'Brien
16. Strauss; 17. Court; 18. Fitzpatrick; 19. Ryan; 20. Heaslip; 21. Reddan; 22. Jackson; 23. Zebo

The problem with this selection is that, at different times, different people have written off at least a third of these 23 players for not being good enough, or for not being international standard. How, for example, can you put Heaslip on the bench and play an average player like Henry? Ferris, O'Brien and Heaslip are the three best backrow players on this island and must all be selected if fit, it would seem. It doesn't matter that this backrow is unbalanced and fails to get the best out of any of the individual players, of course.

To me, this kind of mentality is at least as responsible for Ireland's current fortunes as the general cycles of talent. The whole island, the press, pundits and most crucially, those who select the team, seem to live in a bubble where there are, maybe, 24 players in Ireland who are good enough to play international rugby and those players must be selected, somehow. If Kidney is selecting from a fully fit squad and replacing one injured player, you can see this. Personally speaking, I believe Kidney sees his preferred options as:

15. Kearney; Earls; Zebo
14. Bowe; Trimble; McFadden
13. O'Driscoll; Earls
12. D'Arcy; Earls
11. Earls; Zebo; McFadden
10. Sexton; O'Gara
9. Murray; Reddan

1. Healy; Court
2. Best; Strauss; Cronin
3. Ross
4. Ryan; O'Callaghan
5. O'Connell; McCarthy
6. Ferris; O'Brien; O'Mahony
7. O'Brien; O'Mahony
8. Heaslip; O'Brien; O'Mahony

The only times players are selected outside of this group of 26 players is when crisis hits. That, to be, is the most alarming thing. There is a perception amongst too many people that some players just shouldn't play international rugby. Accordingly, at the point of the biggest crisis or Irish playing talent in the professional era, everyone seems all out of ideas and simply refuses to look beyond what is already failing.

[Bart S]

Some fair points there Neil although I'd take issue with a couple of things. 9 and 12 are 2 positions in Irish rugby that really concern me right now as I really don't think we have anyone who has shown they are even of passable international standard. The Stringer a few seasons ago, for all his lack of a break, was far ahead of where Reddan and murray are. Reddan has never convinced and Murray, after some youthful promise is simply too inconsistent. Other than TOL circa 2009 we have really struggled at 9. I honestly don't think that any of our 9's in the past few years would have got selected for any of the other 6 Nations teams.

I don't think beagle is the long term answer but he deseerves a go against Fiji as to be honest, i'm getting fed up with the other options.

I know there's plenty of people criticising the choice of Darcy, but who are the form 12's whom he should have been picking instead? Joe Schmidt has had Drace as his 1st choice 12 for quite a while and the best alternative has been Paddy Wallace, who is also not young and who has, if we're being honest, never quite shone at international level. If Madigan or McFadden were regular 12's in the Heiny for Leinster ahead of Darce or if Luke Marshall was ahead of Paddy at Ulster then fair enough.

Now that's 2 of the first 3 in our backline.

I'm hopeful that we can solve the 12 conundrum over the next couple of seasons but am more worried about the 9 shirt.

[Neil F]

Bart; the continued selections of D'Arcy at Leinster and Wallace at Ulster have been points I've raised myself - in the context of my belief that what is good for the provinces might not be good for Ireland. In this respect, I agree with you that 12 is a problem. I've also, frequently, failed against the suggestions that O'Driscoll should play 12 for Ireland in the past but I think watching the game this weekend left me somewhat changed in my opinion. Ireland don't have an international standard 12 that plays 12 regularly for his province.

D'Arcy was slow and lethargic against South Africa. His main weapons in his feet and pace have gone and he hasn't improved the other areas of his game, like kicking or passing, sufficiently to maintain selection. He has been poor at international level, despite being the best Irish 12 playing 12 for his province, for a while but it seems that he has now become a liability. Every time D'Arcy gets his hands on the ball, the ball stops with D'Arcy and it stops without the gainline having been threatened. Accordingly, the time has come to begin looking at other options and it seems to me that the strongest available Irish centre partnership is Cave and O'Driscoll. It's a stop gap but also offers a lot more than any other partnership currently available. Until Marshall displaces Wallace or McFadden displaces D'Arcy, I don't see any other option, unless we include D'Arcy. Based on his declining performances in recent times, of which Saturday's performance was the nadir, that isn't an option I wish to see.

I fear that we now look at Stringer through rose-tinted goggles. Stringer's pass was fast but it was never as accurate as is now made out. You're again correct - none of Ireland's 9s would get into another 6 Nations side but then, nor would Stringer. Stringer's issues were more than just not having a break - he didn't have a kicking game, either. His distribution was better than any other option available to Ireland; as I said, it was fast, which is certainly a benefit in rugby, but it was also more inconsistent than I think we remember. I'd rather have Stringer at the top of his game than any of our current options but that shouldn't be confused with Stringer also being a fairly poor scrum-half, by internationals standards.

[Bart S]

Whilst DK's conservatism is clearly a big factor I think the restructed number of players being chosen is also partly driven by the global fixture list these days and the IRFU's priorities.

In a typical season Ireland may play 11 matches - 5 in the 6N's, 3 in the summer tour and 3 autumn internationals. The summer tours tend to be some kind of mix of the southern hemisphere powerhouses with an already depleted squad so little opportunity to experiment unless we go down the farcical route of throwing 15 kids on the pitch. There's generally pressure to win 2 of the 3 autumn games which means the 1st choice is lined up and in the 6N's...well with Italy's recent improvement we put out our full team against all of them. Sadly we don't have the old tours with provincial games which would be invaluable for our player development.

England and France have a lot more professional teams and therefore options to choose from.

Now where I do have an issue is when there are guys like (from an Ulster perspective) Cave, who are playing well for their province in certain positions where there are now gaps seem to get regularly overlooked, because they MAY not be better than other options available. Like Neil F said, I have no idea if Cave could be a decent international outside centre and tbh, none of us will know unless he gets a chance. I'd understand if BOD was available why he may not do, but would have thought he's done enough to get a run out, at least aginst Fiji to seewhat he can do.

[Gael]

I know there's plenty of people criticizing the choice of Darcy, but who are the form 12's whom he should have been picking instead? Joe Schmidt has had Drace as his 1st choice 12 for quite a while and the best alternative has been Paddy Wallace, who is also not young and who has, if we're being honest, never quite shone at international level. If Madigan or McFadden were regular 12's in the Heiny for Leinster ahead of Darce or if Luke Marshall was ahead of Paddy at Ulster then fair enough.

That's exactly it, until these youngsters are good enough to regularly start for their province, how can Kidney rightfully say they are the best in their position in Ireland? Wallace at times has shown he is not really up to much on the international stage, but at provincial level he shows complete mastery (slight exaggeration!). So for Ulster it's hard to drop a man that is playing so well for us - but for Ireland's sake (without whom we would not exist) we'd need to have a serious look at Luke Marshall soon. It's quite a predicament.

[Neil F]

Gael, in agreement with you, in part. I think Kidney, to some extent, has had his hands tied by provincial selection policies. It's hard, in some respects, to justify the selection of McFadden or Marshall ahead of D'Arcy or Wallace. This is suggestive of the bottle neck in Irish rugby. Is it good for Ireland to have Marshall and McFadden not playing but still at the provinces? Obviously not and this is part of what I mean about the problem with Irish rugby being endemic. D'Arcy and Wallace are continued to be selected at the provinces because they are the best provincial players. This, of course, does not mean they are the best international players, at least not moving forward. Between Wallace and Marshall, only one has any chance of being an international in three years; ditto D'Arcy and McFadden.

The solutions that would be good for Ireland are that all four players play regularly; so, either the young guys go off to England and play for a season or two, or they old guys are allowed to go to France for a payday and the young guys start at the provinces. In a flash, the international options are doubled. if D'Arcy is genuinely the best, then he plays. If McFadden, with professional experience at the top level at a club where he doesn't have another guy who is just about as talented ahead of him because of experience and with diminishing legs that don't matter so much at provincial level, is the best, well...

As I said, I think blaming Kidney is the easiest option but it's too easy. The issues stem from the whole professional set up in Ireland at the moment. Getting rid of Kidney may help with some of these issues but not all of them!

[BaggyTrousers]

Gael, Bart, Neil plenty of worthy points made and I can't help coming back to my sticking point. Wales, who most appear to believe is the most reasonable comparison in terms of numbers of pro players & perhaps expectations, have less gaps in positions covered by competent players than Ireland.

I haven't researched it, but I would suggest that their recent grand slams have come in years when the haven't had injuries in the areas where they have no real options such as Adam Jones. They have been able to cope in most other positions but he is key. THP is the one area where they are weak.

Look at the centre resources available to them, probably 4 or 5 who are either excellent or that commodity Neil mentioned, good enough to do the job.

Similarly they have 3 or 4 scrum halves - yesterdays two plus guys like Ritchie Rees, not a star but he can do a job.

We have no such luxury, we thought perhaps we had 6 or 7 back row players yet someone as good as Chris Henry was completely anonymous in the 2nd half when the heat came on. Young O'Mahony remains unproven & seems to be neither one position or another at present, an odd job man. You would kill for Wallace Foley & Quinlan at present, all guys who EOS failed to use at one time or another, most scandalously Davy Wallace who he ignored for 2 or 3 years - what a waste.

NOt going to go on and on but we all know that there are players who look good at club level who when the step up is required are probably just short of standard. Then again, when the cupboard is looking bare, as now, something has to be tried. My fear is that all sorts of changes will be made next week without the slightest intention of remotely considering them for the following week no matter how they play.

If Kidney were to make one important contribution before he leaves next year it would be to get some fresh faces in the team for the rest of this season, irrespective of results. The old & failed are not going to get any better.

By the way Neil, its clear Stringer was not a "complete" scrum half but he had enough to make him a very decent quality international, the sort of player you described in fact that form the glue around the star players. Not only was his pass quick, it was also significantly longer than Murray or Reddan, Boss or TOL & it gave ROG the extra split second to dictate games when both were younger men. He was also as brave a tackler for a midget as I've ever seen & I think his kicking whilst not brilliant wasn't as bad as your recollection. Suspect we may just differ on him, but you are right, right now you'd take him in a heartbeat over what's there.

[BaggyTrousers]

Neil, should have added into my Wales Ireland comparison, that the performances of our provinces compared to there regions are remarkably different. Many seem unable to determine why we should be hugely superior at the club level yet flounder in their wake at international level.

Understanding this apparent paradox is key to understanding the problems for Ireland at International level. It is quite sometime now since a Welsh region bought in a quality international prop forward, Ireland have had to do it at all four provinces. Leinster indeed have struggled to produce a decent hooker also. The same holds true in the 2nd row many high level imports & in teh back row, would Leinster have got that 1st HC win if they hadn't brought in Rocky Elsom that year? When did Munster last produce a quality centre? They have gone through Halstead, De Villiers, Tipoki, Mafi, now Laulala in the last 6 or 7 years

Again I could go on, Irish provinces have has the resources to bring in real quality to cover tricky gaps. Wales, barring Ospreys briefly have had considerably lower profile imports. I believe ultimately that has given them a great level of young talent over the last decade almost yet when shorn of some of they top guys they look hideously bad, just as we can.

I don't believe that there is a genuine comparison in Ireland's provinces who pay for talent to plug their gaps, with the Irish national team. Its a bit like the football crowd in England who would have pointed to some of the best club teams in Europe yet the national team was very average. Why? Utd, Chelsea, Arsenal, Liverpool were all at one time or another able to play teams without a single English player. Club success, international failure. Its not inexplicable.

[Russ]

Maybe this is the start of some master plan

Blood half of the new team this week.

Next week, blood the rest

3rd week. play the 2 halves together and have a new team