Vitalstatistix wrote:IMHO it was never a red card. Similar tackles to that are made on a reasonably regular basis in the Magners/Rabo without a red card being produced. There was no attempt to spear and whilst Warburton should not have dropped Clerc, it was not a malicious tackle and was a yellow at worst.[b/]
Both common sense and the "eye" test say that this was not a red card. Rolland got it badly wrong and likely deprived Wales of a deserved place in the Final. Rolland has had a number of shocking perfomances in Ulster games in the past, and frankly I'm not surprised he made such a mess of the game!
If the roles were reversed and 1F or SO'B was sent off for that tackle 15 mins into a SF, there wouldn't be too many people on this board backing the decision!
Look I'm really sorry to harp on this and I'm really not "getting at" anyone, but... There does not need to be intent nor an attempt to physically force someone down sur their tete. A tackle that results in a drop onto the head/shoulders/upper body is, as stands a sending off offence.
So really Rolland acted correctly, if there's an issue it's with the laws and IRB instructions. Alain would doubtless point out that just because others aren't getting pinged for it by other refs in other competitions doesn't mean he shouldn't "enforce" the laws. And he's at least consistent, having done the same to Fritz in the HC.
I came for my woman, he came with a razor blade,
Bound like us all for the ocean
Vitalstatistix wrote:IMHO it was never a red card. Similar tackles to that are made on a reasonably regular basis in the Magners/Rabo without a red card being produced. There was no attempt to spear and whilst Warburton should not have dropped Clerc, it was not a malicious tackle and was a yellow at worst.
Both common sense and the "eye" test say that this was not a red card. Rolland got it badly wrong and likely deprived Wales of a deserved place in the Final. Rolland has had a number of shocking perfomances in Ulster games in the past, and frankly I'm not surprised he made such a mess of the game!
If the roles were reversed and 1F or SO'B was sent off for that tackle 15 mins into a SF, there wouldn't be too many people on this board backing the decision!
Look I'm really sorry to harp on this and I'm really not "getting at" anyone, but... There does not need to be intent nor an attempt to physically force someone down sur their tete. A tackle that results in a drop onto the head/shoulders/upper body is, as stands a sending off offence.
So really Rolland acted correctly, if there's an issue it's with the laws and IRB instructions. Alain would doubtless point out that just because others aren't getting pinged for it by other refs in other competitions doesn't mean he shouldn't "enforce" the laws. And he's at least consistent, having done the same to Fritz in the HC.
I came for my woman, he came with a razor blade,
Bound like us all for the ocean
ITV showed other tackles from the World Cup that looked a lot worse than that one and none of them got red cards. Either yellow or penalty. Wish Wales won. Many fans have been down at Ravenhill and have been lovely to talk to.
When life gives you lemons - take them because hey... it's free lemons.
Even after watching the tackle from every angle and at every speed there is still a difference of opinions on the matter, Rolland sees it once at realtime speed which is right in front of him and makes the correct decision in his mind, Rolland is one of the best refs in the business, I believe he didn't get back at the Welsh for beating Ireland last week or favour France because his father is French, he made a decision that the tackle was dangerous and acted accordingly....whither we believe it was right or wrong
In memory of Nevin Spence 1990- 15th Sept. 2012
Axel..... 30 October 1973 - 16 October 2016
Pedrie Wannenburg. 2 January 1981 - 22 April 2022.
scrum5 wrote:Even after watching the tackle from every angle and at every speed there is still a difference of opinions on the matter, Rolland sees it once at realtime speed which is right in front of him and makes the correct decision in his mind, Rolland is one of the best refs in the business, I believe he didn't get back at the Welsh for beating Ireland last week or favour France because his father is French, he made a decision that the tackle was dangerous and acted accordingly....whither we believe it was right or wrong
Of course he didn't. Referee's cannot be bias at this level. If they are and are found out their job is at risk. Why would a ref be like that at this level if his job would be under threat? Paddy O'Brien would surely have them out.
Can't blame Rolland. Like you said scrum5 he only sees it once at real-time speed and makes the decision he thinks is best.
When life gives you lemons - take them because hey... it's free lemons.
scrum5 wrote:Even after watching the tackle from every angle and at every speed there is still a difference of opinions on the matter, Rolland sees it once at realtime speed which is right in front of him and makes the correct decision in his mind, Rolland is one of the best refs in the business, I believe he didn't get back at the Welsh for beating Ireland last week or favour France because his father is French, he made a decision that the tackle was dangerous and acted accordingly....whither we believe it was right or wrong
Surely, after 15 mins of a WC semi final, the referee needs to be absolutely sure it was a red card offence. Even if you believe it was potentially a red card (which I don't), the fact that there is so much debate on this board illustrates that it was not a clear cut definite red. As such, the benefit of the doubt should have favoured Warburton.
I don't think for a minute Rolland was biased in favour of France. It was just a poor decision from a referee who has often been frustrating to watch....
Rolland was absolutely sure it was a red card otherwise he wouldn't have produced it, on his one viewing at real speed he deemed it a red card, everything else is immaterial.....Wales will be the team to dominate the 6N's for the next few years with that squad...
In memory of Nevin Spence 1990- 15th Sept. 2012
Axel..... 30 October 1973 - 16 October 2016
Pedrie Wannenburg. 2 January 1981 - 22 April 2022.
Rollers is an arrogant wee tube, but as is often the case, he got this big call right by the letter of the law. Other referees would have bottled it and shown yellow. Rollers is getting a pasting for being right, when others are praised when they take the easy option.
scrum5 wrote:Even after watching the tackle from every angle and at every speed there is still a difference of opinions on the matter, Rolland sees it once at realtime speed which is right in front of him and makes the correct decision in his mind, Rolland is one of the best refs in the business, I believe he didn't get back at the Welsh for beating Ireland last week or favour France because his father is French, he made a decision that the tackle was dangerous and acted accordingly....whither we believe it was right or wrong
Surely, after 15 mins of a WC semi final, the referee needs to be absolutely sure it was a red card offence. Even if you believe it was potentially a red card (which I don't), the fact that there is so much debate on this board illustrates that it was not a clear cut definite red. As such, the benefit of the doubt should have favoured Warburton.
I'm not quite sure where people think Roland has went wrong here. The memo from the IRB dictates that if a player is lifted above the horizontal and is dropped then a red card should be issued. Which of these two things are you arguing didn't happen? Or are you having a pop at the ref for following the laws- in this case you disagreement is with the law and not the ref?
Rolland has a bit of form for red cards for spear tackles. remember this one http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymkBd17K8lc Problem is the supposed IRB directive isn't followed by all refs.
Kepano wrote:Rolland has a bit of form for red cards for spear tackles. remember this one http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymkBd17K8lc Problem is the supposed IRB directive isn't followed by all refs.
Vitalstatistix wrote:IMHO it was never a red card. Similar tackles to that are made on a reasonably regular basis in the Magners/Rabo without a red card being produced. There was no attempt to spear and whilst Warburton should not have dropped Clerc, it was not a malicious tackle and was a yellow at worst.
Both common sense and the "eye" test say that this was not a red card. Rolland got it badly wrong and likely deprived Wales of a deserved place in the Final. Rolland has had a number of shocking perfomances in Ulster games in the past, and frankly I'm not surprised he made such a mess of the game!
If the roles were reversed and 1F or SO'B was sent off for that tackle 15 mins into a SF, there wouldn't be too many people on this board backing the decision!
Please Read the memorandum - it doesn't have to be a spear, it does have to be malicious. They are your intrepretations of what constitutes a red card. As directed Rolland got it right
Kepano wrote:Rolland has a bit of form for red cards for spear tackles. remember this one http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymkBd17K8lc Problem is the supposed IRB directive isn't followed by all refs.
Yeah and it's the one that does that gets the flack.
If this goes to the citation committee (regarding the tackle) IRB might bang the drum a bit harder.
I came for my woman, he came with a razor blade,
Bound like us all for the ocean
All red cards go to disciplinary committee to decide if there should be further punishment. The disciplinary committee can take intent into account as well as previous record, but as pointed out by other posters and the IRB memo, for this offence the ref should just make a decision on what happened and not try to be a mind reader about what the player intended.
Last edited by mikerob on Sat Oct 15, 2011 4:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
