The Tommy Bowe "try"

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Snipe Watson
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Re: The Tommy Bowe "try"

Post by Snipe Watson » Mon Mar 12, 2012 8:33 pm

LastKnightoftheproms wrote:
Snipe Watson wrote:The TMO took a liberty and asked a question rather than answering the question the ref asked. The TMO question was a leading one as it suggested there was a problem and caused the referee to rethink. Whether the decision was right or wrong is a moot point as the protocol was not observed.
There are too many high profile issues with TMO errors and it should be a simple process.
Watch Superleague on Sky some Friday night Snipe. TMO can so back to previous play the ball - allows him to do onside/offside at kicks through, crossing, obstruction, acts of foul play. Limiting TMO to act of scoring is nuts in the modern age.
Oh aye, I agree. The protcol is complete nonsense. needs to be opened out to include anything in the last phase of play
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Neil F
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Re: The Tommy Bowe "try"

Post by Neil F » Mon Mar 12, 2012 8:45 pm

fuzzylogic wrote:As much as I would have liked to have seen it given,, going by the laws of the game. The officials made the correct decision.

The tackler has no obligation to release the tackled player in the in goal area.

The tackled player has the right to place the ball in any direction he likes as soon as he is tackled. Unfortunately with all the wrestling with the ball on his chest Tommy wasted his chance.
Yes and no; going by the laws of the game, either their decision not to award the (a penalty) try was incorrect, or the method of restarting the game was incorrect. This is not "the officials [making] the correct decision." It's a case of the officials making the wrong decision with the "wrong" aspect being a degree of magnitude.

See my posts above; the decision was only correct, insofar as the incident didn't take place in-goal. If it took place in-goal, Bowe was held up (given the amount of wriggling around, I have no problem with it being considered that he was held up) and the game should have been restarted with a five metre scrum, with an Irish put in. If it didn't take place in goal, then for a Scotland penalty to be the called, the fact that the Scottish player didn't release the tackled player, which is basically the first thing a referee now looks for in the sequence of events in the tackle situation, has to be ignored.

No matter what way we look at this, the officials got 'something' wrong. What they got wrong, we can debate but they got something wrong and it's the latest in a very worrying trend of referees right at the top of the sport getting things wrong. This wasn't a crucial mistake but it's still a noticeable one.

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Shan
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Re: The Tommy Bowe "try"

Post by Shan » Mon Mar 12, 2012 10:22 pm

To my mind the tackle was in-field. Bowe hits the line as he comes down and he had forward momentum. Tackler should have left go of him and he'd have scored. Should have been a penalty try in my opinion or a penalty to Ireland at worst.

This is assuming a tackle is determined by where it takes place rather than where the tackled player lands.

Even if the tackle was determined to be on the goal line it should have been a 5M scrum to Ireland.
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Re: The Tommy Bowe "try"

Post by rumncoke » Mon Mar 12, 2012 10:55 pm

Since the action took place over the try line there would be no double action to score as Bowe had gone over the line on his back thus to ground the ball required movement of the ball.

But due to efforts of the scottish player grounding of the ball was delayed -- ie held up --no try-- 5 metre scrum
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Neil F
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Re: The Tommy Bowe "try"

Post by Neil F » Mon Mar 12, 2012 11:00 pm

Your interest is mine, Shan; I still haven't managed to work out what constitutes 'in-goal' in this scenario, though. By the rules, it's a bizarre no-mans-land where some rules of the ball being in-field apply, some of it being off-field apply, as well as some totally unique rules. This probably shouldn't be surprising, given the nature of the sport. A specific ruling for what applies, when a defensive player appears to drag an attacking player (by momentum or otherwise) into the in-goal area does not seem to exist.

What I say next is based on conjecture, based on other rules of the game; I think that, in this scenario, we can draw an analogue with the bouncing ball going out in-touch and a bouncing ball going out elsewhere - a specific ruling should apply. As such, a defending player dragging an attacking player into the in-goal area is not the same as a defending player dragging a player into touch; the ball is still live but new rules apply. I think it should be the ball we are interested in, not the players, therefore.

So; a bouncing ball can be picked up by a defending player in the 22 and touched down in-goal, with a resulting 22 drop-out, so long as the defender has a foot in-goal. I think this is probably the pertinent part. An attacking player dragged into the in-goal area by a defending player is an analogue of the bouncing ball, so the normal in-goal rules apply. So the defender was perfectly within his rights not to release the tackled man, having dragged him across the line (which I think we can all agree happened). Thus, Bowe was held up in-goal; result - 5 metre scrum, Ireland put in.

There we go, it's taken me a whole evening of on-again off-again thinking but this is the appropriate adjudication. I suppose the on-field officials don't have the luxury of a few hours and a beer or two before they work it out, though.

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darkside lightside
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Re: The Tommy Bowe "try"

Post by darkside lightside » Mon Mar 12, 2012 11:29 pm

Shan wrote:To my mind the tackle was in-field. Bowe hits the line as he comes down and he had forward momentum. Tackler should have left go of him and he'd have scored. Should have been a penalty try in my opinion or a penalty to Ireland at worst.
that's what Butler said back to Moore IIRC - what if the tackle started before the goal-line.. btw by quoting Moore I'm not saying I agree, I genuinely don't know the law well enough - must say my gut reaction was no try, and wasn't too bothered about the pen to Scotland, but having read some of the posts above I'm restrospectively a bit hacked off :D
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