USA v Ireland

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BaggyTrousers
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Re: USA v Ireland

Post by BaggyTrousers » Sun Jun 09, 2013 10:24 pm

scrum5 wrote:Hugely physical game by the USA, Manoa and Cleverly especially, thought his YC was harsh let alone being cited as I thought he brought Toner down safely.... really poor game, hoping the U20's will be better, couldn't be any worse.
No, yellow card all day long but nothing more in mine. He kind of brought him down, certainly didn't drop him but he did lift Toner's leg & then the rest of the big lad, then when they were down he gave a bit of a tousle as if to say, "howdya like them apples mate".
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Re: USA v Ireland

Post by BR » Sun Jun 09, 2013 10:29 pm

BaggyTrousers wrote:
No, yellow card all day long but nothing more in mine. He kind of brought him down, certainly didn't drop him but he did lift Toner's leg & then the rest of the big lad, then when they were down he gave a bit of a tousle as if to say, "howdya like them apples mate".
I didn't see or hear any indication of the YC offence other than it was a tackle. I actually thought it was for a high tackle just before the turn-over. Was there confirmation that it was for a tip tackle?
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Re: USA v Ireland

Post by rumncoke » Mon Jun 10, 2013 1:14 am

Kofi

Being" a rugby type" doesn't mean you are a regular rugby supporter being a rugby type doesn't mean you have played the game and doesn't mean you've read the laws .

Most Americans esp Texans would be American football educated and viewers rather than regular Rugby types -- American football doesn't have imaginary lines such as Off side . American football is based on Harassment of the quarter back which is impeded by blocking and not impeded by the laws of the game which make coming in from the side an offence and failure to remain behind the hind most foot of ruck an offence.

It is that difference which makes the ruck such a hard discipline for American forwards because many come to rugby after College Football and watching American football on telvision

Kofi at least half the crowd at Ravenhill haven't read the Laws and the other half swear the ref hasn't which if you don't accept the explanation I am giving is the conclusion you have made about the referee.

Whether you agree or disagree doesn't really get up my nose because my case is that the ref didn't referee the ruck because if had the game would have become an endless series of penalties.

Secondly that failure meant that Ireland couldn't control the ball at the base of the ruck and made the control of the game impossible for Boss at scrum half and Madigan at out half because passes were being hurried badly timed and directed. The one area where Ireland should have had control was the line out and they didn't which makes the selection of Toner ??
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Re: USA v Ireland

Post by BR » Mon Jun 10, 2013 8:47 am

Rum - you shouldn't believe the stereotype. Tx is a huge state and Houston is a multi-cultured city. The stadium used on Saturday, which would put all but 2 Irish rugby grounds to shame, was built for soccer. There is a large Mexican influence (no - REAL Mexican), which increases the interest in soccer, but there is still room for rugby, with plenty of expats and indigenous players (not all from a gridiron background, by any means). As you say hardly any will have an encyclopedic knowledge of the laws, but then I could point you to professional players,to whom that applies.
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Re: USA v Ireland

Post by Scranner » Mon Jun 10, 2013 9:15 am

Law 10.4(j) reads: Lifting a player from the ground and dropping or driving that player into the ground whilst that player’s feet are still off the ground such that the player’s head and/or upper body come into contact with the ground is dangerous play.

A directive was issued to all Unions and Match Officials in 2009 emphasizing the IRB’s zero-tolerance stance towards dangerous tackles and reiterating the following instructions for referees:

- The player is lifted and then forced or ‘speared’ into the ground (red card offence)

- The lifted player is dropped to the ground from a height with no regard to the player’s safety (red card offence)

- For all other types of dangerous lifting tackles a yellow card or penalty may be considered sufficient.

Looks like the yellow card was enough. Clever didn't drop him. Went down with him. But there's no doubt he's a cute hoor. I wouldn't leave my side door unlocked if he was in the neighbourhood.
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BaggyTrousers
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Re: USA v Ireland

Post by BaggyTrousers » Mon Jun 10, 2013 11:00 am

BR wrote:
BaggyTrousers wrote:
No, yellow card all day long but nothing more in mine. He kind of brought him down, certainly didn't drop him but he did lift Toner's leg & then the rest of the big lad, then when they were down he gave a bit of a tousle as if to say, "howdya like them apples mate".
I didn't see or hear any indication of the YC offence other than it was a tackle. I actually thought it was for a high tackle just before the turn-over. Was there confirmation that it was for a tip tackle?
Was a definite tip-tackle type but Clever didn't drop him. It would be a stretch to say it was anything but dangerous for what control you have over safely bring a 6'11" hulk I'm not sure. That said, the only thing hurt for Toner would have been his pride.
Support the team and coaching staff. Forget the rest,BUT NEVER MOVE ON.

FIRFU - FU'CK YOU ONE AND ALL, CAVING IN TO SPONSORS, SACKING THE INNOCENT FOR A FEW DOLLARS MORE, SHAMEFUL BASTA'RDS. YOU'VE LOST MY SUPPORT & I HOPE MORE ULSTERMEN & WOMEN

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Re: USA v Ireland

Post by Neil F » Mon Jun 10, 2013 11:21 am

I (mercifully) didn't see the game, nor the yellow card incident, so I won't comment on the specific incident. That said, the referee's convention, now, can be fairly easily summed up.

The moment the tackler takes an opponent to parallel with the ground, it is a penalty. This is irregardless of how you return your opposition to the ground. If you take your opponent parallel to the ground, stop and carefully and gently place him / her back on the ground, feet-first, it is still a penalty. If you simply let go of a player who is parallel, or near-parallel to the ground, you are in for a card. The colour of the card depends on how the player falls and only on how the player falls; it is not based on intent, "spearing" or any such thing. Legs, hips, lower back etc., will result in a yellow card; anything further up is a red. In any situation where you have taken your opponent beyond parallel, the laws of probability dictate he / she will fall head / neck / upper back / upper chest to the ground and that is now a red-card.

As I understand the laws and conventions, the moment a player lifts an opponent off the ground, the lifter is responsible for the safety of the lifted opponent. Letting go whilst the opponent is in the air is, therefore, sanctionable with a card as the tackler is no longer in control of the safety of his / her opponent. The severity of the sanction depends on what happens, afterwards. The penalty for tipping a player to parallel follows from this because there is still a "risk" to the tackled player, regardless of how he / she is returned to the ground as there is no guarantee at that point that the tackler can return the tackled player to the ground safely.

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Re: USA v Ireland

Post by Thelaw » Mon Jun 10, 2013 12:10 pm

I did watch the game, and a little like Baggy it wasn't worth wasting sleep over.

Toner's only contribution to the match was getting Cleaver awarded a yellow card. It was tip tackle, no doubt about it even though he was gently set back on the ground. Apart from that Toner was a total waste of life on the pitch. The line out was a shambles, it seems that without POC Ireland can't manage to catch the fecking ball. Part of the problem was the throwing though. Madigan should have keep the quiff. Distinctly ordinary, though as others have stated the stuttering performance from Boss didn't help. Seriously why Boss? I would add that while I am a fan of beagle, and thought he did well in the limited cameo he had I would have though there should have been a younger player brought....problem is I can't think of one.

DC was basically invisible. Olding for his first time at full international level was outstanding. Two try saving tackles, and one of the few backs who made any impact. A great confident and very physical performance from a cub who I had written off as a failed 10 who would haunt the Ravens at the start of the season. Never so happy to be wrong.

Dare I say that this was a match where Angry Andy would have shone? Fergus may be a nice chap brought virtually nothing to the game. Zebo may as well have been the water boy, which was still better than Henshaw who just looked out of his depth and ham fisted.

The most worrying thing for me to watch was Hendo. Apart from a few great tackles and turnovers he looked puffed after the first ten minutes. Henry was everywhere being his normal scrappy self. Hendo was hanging about looking like a young Ruck inspector in training. Maybe it was how he had been told to play - but the kid needs to start getting a little more aggressive. He has the skills, he can do it, but seems to be holding back. As I said it worried me.

POM was good, aggressive and indeed more of a captain than Ireland had in the 6 nations. Court had a good cameo, though by that stage the scrums had descended to farce level. USA played hard and aggressive rugby, mastered the ref early and were unlucky to lose. Ireland were directionless - yes Madigan I blame you, apart from your goalkicking - and worse looked weak in attack and defense. All made worse by having to listen to a Gaelic commentary. Time to start paying for Sky sports again I think
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Re: USA v Ireland

Post by ColinM » Mon Jun 10, 2013 12:21 pm

Didn't see the match, was Paul Emerick playing?

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Re: USA v Ireland

Post by Russ » Mon Jun 10, 2013 1:07 pm

ColinM wrote:Didn't see the match, was Paul Emerick playing?
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Re: USA v Ireland

Post by bazzaj » Mon Jun 10, 2013 1:10 pm

Tough one to answer big Merv whom I should have quoted but I put my love of the game first before the love of a team.
Would prefer to watch France versus the All Blacks than Ireland reserves against USA.
I appreciate the watching intensity and skill levels at the highest level in the same way I would rather watch the World Cup final than Ulster playing Connacht in a Rabo game given the choice.
To me the ultimate would be watch a Lions tour for this reason and I love the idea of supporting the Norths, Grays and Coles of this world whom I would obviously be against any other time.
I will probably not be considered a true fan of Ulster/Ireland because of this outlook but that is fine and I am totally ok with that.

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Re: USA v Ireland

Post by Tevez » Mon Jun 10, 2013 1:14 pm

No - Emerick injured...not in squad

Scott Lavalla, once of this parish and now at Stade Francais did play in a pretty physical US back row.

Incidentally I met Lavalla after the Amlin Final in Dublin and reminded him of his time at Ulster...."Ah, yes, the glory years..." he replied. Decent player - who has managed to punch above his weight - fair play to him.
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Re: USA v Ireland

Post by BR » Mon Jun 10, 2013 3:18 pm

Thelaw wrote: Time to start paying for Sky sports again I think
It wasn't on Sky Sports was it?
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Re: USA v Ireland

Post by damianmcr » Mon Jun 10, 2013 3:29 pm

No just TG4

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Re: USA v Ireland

Post by BR » Mon Jun 10, 2013 4:08 pm

damianmcr wrote:No just TG4
What about the last 8 minutes?
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