Argentina v Ireland

[Russ]

So long as POC remembers in his old age that he is a brad pitt ball carrier, then if he is in the top 2 locks on the island, then he is on the field

You know what Russ, ould Paulie has never been a big ball carrier in terms of yards/metres for youngish, but what he has usually done in ball carrying terms has been rock solid at getting the ball back on his side. That my boy is more valuable than the Vunibastard type who will make yards then loose it.

That said I would not rank his ball carrying as a major part of his game, and he is far from alone in great second rows in that, few of them are, small gains and present the ball is the stock in trade.

He likes to stand alone at first receiver, and get the ball 2/3m behind the gain line, get knocked back and wait for support to arrive

Best he just stands out of the way

[bazzaj]

Its a good ponts by both of you but I feel Botha and Matfield are not as influencal or integral to the Springbok as POC is to the Irish set up.
In fact I think they are only in through injury and no doubt if POC was a Saffer he could do a similar job.
The manner in which a game revolves around him reminds me similarly of Dean Richards.
He was able to dictate the pace of a game against the best in Europe but came unstuck against the top SH sides especially towards the end of his career.
Don't get me wrong he still will and should have a role to play but I feel the dynamism and youth of Henderson is preferable in terms of the way we are looking to play with the emphasis on a quicker tempo.

[BaggyTrousers]

I think Hendo will be a second row predominantly under Joe, Toner is in possession for now but game time with Paulie would stand to Hendo long-term.

[rumncoke]

IMO

Toner is the first forwards name on the sheet with Joe because Toner provides the fall back target in the line out when the pressure is on Best. If that is the truth then the second second row spot is between PoC, D Ryan, Foley and Henderson.

(Joe likes to have at least one set piece were he can guarantee possession on his own ball and while the Irish scrum performs. Scrums are a frequent source of penalties and scrum penalties are a lottery . The line out ( provided the throw is straight) seldom end in a penalty line out penalties are awarded usually for a subsequent ruck infringement not the catch .)

And the proof of that belief could be in who is identified as Capt for the AIs and onward -- because if it is not PoC then his days are numbered.

While PoC can perform at PRO 12 ( or whatever level is not the really the question ) the question is can he stay the course for 80 minutes with thew ABs the Boks ,France England etc when they up they apply the power and pace . You can only dictate the pace of a game while you have possession . Richards was lucky in so far as most English packs when the got the ball were able to hold on to it and play a variation of the Eton wall game I don't think the Irish pack have either the attitude or the ability to play that type of game and Joe hasn't favoured that type of game in the past.

[bazzaj]

Thats the way I am seeing things but I can still see POC being utilised in a similar way that England did with Dallaglio in 2007.
Still could be an impact opinion with plenty of knowledge of mistakes made in World Cups at the very least.

[Rooster]

Paulie is the Irish equivalent of Johann.

[Snipe Watson]

Paulie is the Irish equivalent of Johann.

Very similar and Paulie's creaking frame is starting to give way like Johann's did.

[Shan]

No man can go on forever. I think it is a pity POC didn't get a rest this summer but he was needed so that is that.

We'll only be able to judge properly as we go through next season but I think the writing is on the wall for him as an 80 minute player at the top level. That said though he performs better the higher the level you go to.

[Russ]

Maybe Munster can rest him for us

Anscombe Out

[BaggyTrousers]

No man can go on forever. I think it is a pity POC didn't get a rest this summer but he was needed so that is that.

We'll only be able to judge properly as we go through next season but I think the writing is on the wall for him as an 80 minute player at the top level. That said though he performs better the higher the level you go to.

That is the crux of the matter Shan, if Paulie gets though the season undamaged - admittedly a big ask - then if in a solid Irish pack of frontliners, he will be a huge presence who the rest rally around and draw inspiration from.

What he is clearly not up to is being a whirlwind amongst a half strength team.

I don't expect Paulie to to go on as long as Matfield or Shaw for he has had too many injuries and illness in his time, but the Rwc is not beyond him and he will be a presence as Ireland slump to significant failure as is habitual.

[bazzaj]

With Ireland wanting to play a quick tempo could POCs influence be used to slow things up to suit his own game?

I don't think any player is capable of slowing down a game plan anyway coaches would be on it after a quarter of a game.. I think you know little of POC if you think he would put himself ahead of the team. You are talking about a man of exceptional character.

Sorry snipe missed this.
I am not saying he would deliberately and knowingly slow things down but the way he plays now its inevitable that he will.
Might be good enough against the Scots and the Italians but the intensity in which the big guns play he will not live with as has been suggested.
In no way am I doubting his integrity as he can only play the way he plays.

Our biggest problem though is midfield.
I cant think of many decent teams in history who did not have a quality settled centre pairing.
Darce/BOD, Charvet/ Sella, Bunce /Little, Schuster/Stanley, Guscott/Carling, Horan/Little, Nonu/Smith, the names roll off the tongue and the list goes on.
That is the worry and the English are in the same boat but at least they have one half sorted.

[ruckover]

Bazz - you are talking about a player in a very similar position to Johann, not as his peak physically but an exceptional leader and role model. By advocating you would drop POC for the "big" games, would you by the same token not played Johann against Saracens? Or Leinster? Of course not. What POC lacks in physical ability is more than made up for by his leadership.

[Spiffsson]

No man can go on forever. I think it is a pity POC didn't get a rest this summer but he was needed so that is that.

We'll only be able to judge properly as we go through next season but I think the writing is on the wall for him as an 80 minute player at the top level. That said though he performs better the higher the level you go to.

Not entirely sure he was needed, and I seem to remember that it was POC himself who was adamant about wanting to go. I think this tour showed that he is not quite the force he once was, though still a top class lock. Whether he can last out and still deliver the goods at the 2015 RWC is another issue. He can still rule the lineout and perform well in the loose about the park. But I wish he would he would ease off in the ball-carrying dept, since (a) he does not make good ground and (b) it is energy sapping.

[Russ]

The problem then becomes, people of the south attach so called ligind status to players

The media jumps on this and makes a big deal of them being played

Case in point, radge.

He was brad pitt for 3 years before finally being sent to the only country who would let him stay in rugby

Hopefully Schmidt is a better man than Kidney and his reign of terror

Anscombe Out

[bazzaj]

[quote="ruckover"]Bazz - you are talking about a player in a very similar position to Johann, not as his peak physically but an exceptional leader and role model. By advocating you would drop POC for the "big" games, would you by the same token not played Johann against Saracens? Or Leinster? Of course not. What POC lacks in physical ability is more than made up for by his leadership.[/quote

I think we all know Ruck that international rugby is a huge step up from club level and Johan has quit because he knows that he is no longer doing himself justice.
Again I felt Hendo and Dan were probably more of an effective pairing at the end as I saw plenty of games last season where we looked rudderless with Johan on the pitch.

As Russ mentions its a shame Rog ended the way he did and I dont want POC suffering the same fate though I repeat he does have something to offer
The leadership issue does not concern me with Best and Sexton in our ranks and if it was soley about leadership why not wheel out Willie John?

In any case as we saw with our last few Ulster and Irish games leadership is not just about talking the talk when you watched Hendo play who led by example in refusing to wilt and accept the situation
That will do for me as a leader.