The Golf

[BaggyTrousers]

St Andrews only defence now is the wind sadly

St Andrews is usually taken apart with Woods holding the 4 round record at 19 under par. The thing is it matters not a jot for St Andrews also has a list of winners that suggests that it brings the cream to the top, notwithstanding the current "St.Andrews Champion" is something more of a very good player rather than a great, Louis Oosthuizen who hails from the same part of the world as Johannes Gysbert Muller, Mossel Bay.

[Snipe Watson]

St Andrews only defence now is the wind sadly

Doesn't matter one jot Russ, it's St Andrews.

[BaggyTrousers]

St Andrews only defence now is the wind sadly

Doesn't matter one jot Russ, it's St Andrews.

Is it true Snipe that the nobility were whacking gutty balls around the foreshores of Fife when the people of what was to become modern Glasgow were running around painted with woad & shaking their wallapers at sheep hoping to pull?

[damianmcr]

I was curious about this and found this on Google

http://www.flyingbluegolf.com/Inspire/s ... club-royal#

[BaggyTrousers]

I was curious about this and found this on Google

http://www.flyingbluegolf.com/Inspire/s ... club-royal#

Damn and blast, for my 15000th post I was going to make up all sorts of bullshit about Royals losing their virginity at the deep bunker to the right of the 17th at Portrush, but feck it, Damo has it sorted.

Either for it's repute or because some twatt from Buck House liked the course. It extends as far as the antipodes, Royal Melbourne comes to mind.

Right here's to the next thousand

[WhiteKnightoftheWeld]

Tiger Woods 85 at the Memorial Tournament.

Best news I've heard in a while. While I normally don't take pleasure in other's pain for Woods I relax my rules because he is such a moody miserable pr1ck. Can't stand him and never could. Incredible golfer in his day of course but f-ck him.

C'mon now Shan.

Tiger is the best that's ever been. Seeing him struggle is tough to watch. At his best his game was incredible - and probably beyond what Rory's A+++ game is. Knowing what he's capable of doing, and then seeing him shoot 85, borders on painful to watch.

When he plays, TV ratings shoot through the roof. He's still the biggest draw in golf - you could put Rory, Fowler and Spieth out a few holes behind him and Tiger would still get all the attention. There isn't a single person in golf - and in most sports - who is as "Box Office" as Tiger is.

None of this of course is relevant to his personality. Yes, he's a bit of a c*nt. He's guarded and stand-offish, and by a lot of accounts a pretty inconsiderate, self-centred character. Throws the odd club, swears a bit on TV. Doesn't tip generously, doesn't offer his coach an ice-lolly, r00ts strippers in carparks while they've got the painters in, etc.

But his golf game is (was) so incredible that it's not pleasant to watch him hack his way around. If you've not played golf you won't be able to appreciate just how incredible his stinger was, how impossible holing must-make after must-make after must-make putt really is. The sound his irons make when you witness him play in the flesh. Still one of my favourite things in golf is seeing Tiger hit a shot, twirl the club and look away. The 9 shots. Augusta lighting up when he goes on a charge.

Maybe being a miserable pr!ck is why he is (again, was) just so good. Perhaps it takes that selfish, single-mindedness to dedicate and grind away so many hours on the range, and to be able to look at an opponent and take pleasure in dominating him to the point he crumbles.

As much as I'd love to see Rory go on and win many many more majors, I'd probably rather see Tiger get past Jack's record (which was set when only a handful of guys were contenders to win a major). And if he and Rory were to go head to head properly in a major - back 9, Sunday afternoon - that would get golf excited like nothing else could.

[BaggyTrousers]

A lot of truth in there Welder BUT:

Tiger Woods 85 at the Memorial Tournament.

Best news I've heard in a while. While I normally don't take pleasure in other's pain for Woods I relax my rules because he is such a moody miserable pr1ck. Can't stand him and never could. Incredible golfer in his day of course but f-ck him.

C'mon now Shan.

Tiger is the best that's ever been.[album]Not even close, Nicklaus by a country mile. Woods ability to hit shots as you describe was not available to Jack given the equipment he used. Ould wooden headed rat beaters that today's pros would crap themselves if they had to use.[/album] Seeing him struggle is tough to watch. At his best his game was incredible - and probably beyond what Rory's A+++ game is. Knowing what he's capable of doing, and then seeing him shoot 85, borders on painful to watch.

When he plays, TV ratings shoot through the roof. He's still the biggest draw in golf He absolutely is, no argument on that.- you could put Rory, Fowler and Spieth out a few holes behind him and Tiger would still get all the attention. There isn't a single person in golf - and in most sports - who is as "Box Office" as Tiger is.

None of this of course is relevant to his personality. Yes, he's a bit of a c*nt. He's guarded and stand-offish, and by a lot of accounts a pretty inconsiderate, self-centred character. Throws the odd club, swears a bit on TV. Doesn't tip generously, doesn't offer his coach an ice-lolly, r00ts strippers in carparks while they've got the painters in, etc. A fine pen picture, you just left out the cheating & hacking up & ejecting loogies.

But his golf game is (was) so incredible that it's not pleasant to watch him hack his way around.I'm lovvin' it If you've not played golf you won't be able to appreciate just how incredible his stinger was, how impossible holing must-make after must-make after must-make putt really is. The sound his irons make when you witness him play in the flesh. Still one of my favourite things in golf is seeing Tiger hit a shot, twirl the club and look away. The 9 shots. Augusta lighting up when he goes on a charge.

Maybe being a miserable pr!ck is why he is (again, was) just so good. Perhaps it takes that selfish, single-mindedness to dedicate and grind away so many hours on the range, and to be able to look at an opponent and take pleasure in dominating him to the point he crumbles. Absolutely right once again, Nicklaus in his earlier years was similar without being actually rude, Faldo was an utter c*nt, as Scott Hoch said "It's like playing on your own but slower".

As much as I'd love to see Rory go on and win many many more majors, I'd probably rather see Tiger get past Jack's record (which was set when only a handful of guys were contenders to win a major).That is outrageous , when Nicklaus won, there were smaller numbers of high class players, but his opposition were class winners themselves, separated from the rest of the field. Think of 9 Woods titles within a few years where there wasn't anyone even close, he beat a list of pretty average journeymen who were having a decent year or two. Woods got a completely free run for a long time. And if he and Rory were to go head to head properly in a major - back 9, Sunday afternoon - that would get golf excited like nothing else could.

There is one other thing that sets Woods apart as both better than his peers but also weaker than Nicklaus. He was never won a major he hasn't been leader in after three rounds. The wins indicate his clear gap to the also rans for many years, the misses when close indicate a lack of ballix on a hard Sunday in a major.

I hate the ballix with a passion, bit I'm not blind to his quality. Mind you I opened a thread about cheats, no good reason for Tiger not to feature on it.

Exhibit A

23-1. Relief
Except when both the loose impediment and the ball lie in or touch the same hazard, any loose impediment may be removed without penalty.

Tiger's interpretation, bring in a dozen fat Yanks to shift a boulder. Loose impediment my arsepiece. CHEAT.

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[WhiteKnightoftheWeld]

That's a loose impediment. No doubt about it...

I could make an argument along the lines of:

Tiger won 2 of his 14 by a country mile - his first Masters and his US Open at Pebble. Pebble stands out in that no-one else could break par (runner up was 3 over I think, Tiger was a dozen under). The rest of his majors have been more about getting into position with good 2nd and 3rd rounds and holding that position.

His USPGA when he beat Sergio also had in the top 10 - Cink (a worthy major champ ), Nick Price, Monty, Furyk, and Duval. Many of his other wins were similar in that good players were in and around the top of the field. He's won 9 more majors than anyone else who's been in their prime during the same era - including Els, Mickelson, Vijay, Retief and a handful of others who will be remembered as very very fine players.

Yes - Jack had Arnie and Player. Raymond Floyd won a handful, beyond that there were a few guys with a couple of major wins. I've taken a quick look over the confirmed entries so far for the US Open at Chambers Bay. Without being silly, there are more than 70 guys who are either past major champions or who could realistically win it. That's before the likes of Luke Donald (not qualified as yet) or whomever makes it through the qualifiers enters.

The strength of field argument is heavily in Tiger's favour. Any PGA Tour event could be won by anyone in the field - more than 100 genuine contenders every week. Bar Sam Snead, Tiger's won more than anyone. The WGC events - the strongest fields in golf - have seen around half a dozen players win more than once. Ogilivy has won 3, and bar Tiger is the only man with more than 2. Tiger has won 18. He dominated golf from late 90s to late 00s like nobody ever has.

Equipment - to a point you're correct about wooden head clubs and so on, but also remember that the old balls and old clubs were easier to shape. Tiger also played for a lot of years with a small headed driver - even when the 460cc big dogs became commonplace.

As said, I could make those sort of arguments, or I could just remind you that Jack couldn't draw a ball....

[BaggyTrousers]

I love this sort of thing Allow me a few corrections

That's a loose impediment. No doubt about it... If the rules official had had any balls he would have said "Mr Woods, that enormous rock is not imbedded, of that there is no doubt, however the rules of golf in these matters are intended to dictate what a player may & may not do, they do not take into account having an army of volunteers to do your bidding. So Mr Woods, if you wish to declare that massive enormous, individually unmanageable semi-mountain as a loose impediment I am unable to prevent you from doing so, however you should know that I believe you to be breaking the spirit of the rules of golf and that every other competitor in this field will think the same, even if they are too cowardly to say so. Furthermore Mr Woods, in Northern Ireland their is a man with with trouser that flap in the wind who will never allow this incident to be forgotten. Your call Mr Woods.

I could make an argument along the lines of:

Tiger won 2 of his 14 by a country mile - his first Masters and his US Open at Pebble. Pebble stands out in that no-one else could break par (runner up was 3 over I think, Tiger was a dozen under). The rest of his majors have been more about getting into position with good 2nd and 3rd rounds and holding that position.

His USPGA when he beat Sergio also had in the top 10 - Cink (a worthy major champ ), Nick Price, Monty, Furyk, and Duval.Barring Nickie Price not a multiple winner amongst them, exactly the sort of player I suggested, they may be some of the better ones - Cink excepted but that is their place. Many of his other wins were similar in that good players were in and around the top of the field. He's won 9 more majors than anyone else who's been in their prime during the same era - including Els, Mickelson, Vijay, Retief and a handful of others who will be remembered as very very fine players.

Yes - Jack had Arnie and Player. Raymond Floyd won a handful, beyond that there were a few guys with a couple of major wins. You appear to have forgotten: Tom Watson 8 majors, Lee Trevino 6 majors, Seve 5 majors, Peter Thompson 5 majors, Billy Casper 3 majors. Even Faldo had started winning his 6 before Woods turned pro & completed his 6 before Woods. Woods has never faced a field with that level of multiple major winners - ever unless you count old lads in their dotage mucking around at the Masters. I've taken a quick look over the confirmed entries so far for the US Open at Chambers Bay. Without being silly, there are more than 70 guys who are either past major champions or who could realistically win it. That's before the likes of Luke Donald (not qualified as yet) or whomever makes it through the qualifiers enters. Irrelevant Captain

The strength of field argument is heavily in Tiger's favour. If by that you mean there has been an overall increase in the depth of field, yes, if you mean strength of real competitors, not even close.Any PGA Tour event could be won by anyone in the field - more than 100 genuine contenders every week. Bar Sam Snead, Tiger's won more than anyone. Snead was an utter legend, however in Nicklaus's days there were hugely fewer events in a much shorter season. I'd be interested to know how many start each needed for their wins. The WGC events - the strongest fields in golf - have seen around half a dozen players win more than once. Ogilivy has won 3, and bar Tiger is the only man with more than 2. Tiger has won 18. He dominated golf from late 90s to late 00s like nobody ever has. the WGC events were never in Nicklaus's calendar & are somewhat overblown in importance, majors they ain't. And of course I would argue that there is a very good argument why Woods was able to be so dominant.

Equipment - to a point you're correct about wooden head clubs and so on, but also remember that the old balls and old clubs were easier to shape.It would be much more relevant to say the old balls & clubs were much harder to hit straight. Tiger also played for a lot of years with a small headed driver - even when the 460cc big dogs became commonplace. Golf is a gift these days, even an ould lad in his 60s can hit a ball as far as he ever did, when his shoulder isn't held together my stickybacked plastic It also has great relevance to why you get more uniformly strengthened fields these days, any gobshite can play wellish.
As said, I could make those sort of arguments, or I could just remind you that Jack couldn't draw a ball....

Jack was the most methodical golfer, he decided the smartest way to play & stuck with it. Incidentally, whilst I dislike Woods, I was never a Nicklaus fan, much preferred Palmer, Watson then Seve.

[WhiteKnightoftheWeld]

This what you're looking for?

[BaggyTrousers]

This what you're looking for?

That is impressive, but as the guy with the first comment says, keep playing and it goes down rapidly. you next task, should you choose to accept it , is to find yearly stats of wins to starts over their careers.

I expect Tigers, against the feeble fields when he was head and shoulders above the entire field would still have him ahead over peak years.

Interesting that no modern golfer apart from him features. In the older days careers were in general shorter for the also rans, no incentive of a seniors tour to keep playing.

Arnie just kept playing when he had no real chance because he just loved to play golf. That is why gentlemen of a certain vintage always loved Arnie.

Oh yeah, should have said, 2007 figures, currently 79 from 306, 25.82% & still very very impressive but heading south & likely to continue to.


Here is the list of runners up to Woods in his majors, about 12 majors between them including 3 multiple winners not exactly a who's who of golfing legends, some worthy players, many guys who came and went like a wet fart, many never never men:

Tom Kite
Sergio García
Ernie Els, Miguel Ángel Jiménez
Thomas Bjørn, Ernie Els
Bob May
David Duval
Retief Goosen
Phil Mickelson
Chris DiMarco
Colin Montgomerie
Chris DiMarco
Shaun Micheel
Woody Austin
Rocco Mediate

[Snipe Watson]

Welder, how can you declare a man who couldn't bate the thing out of his road with a driver the best player ever? The was a phenomenal iron player and the best putter ever, but Jack Nicklaus was and still is the best golfer ever. Forget about 18 majors won, look at the guy who dominated at a time of other greats and had a game without any perceptible weakness. Woods dominated because everyone else believed he was invincible and that was largely a media construct, they created his unbeatable reputation and the entire world bought it. That's all before we consider his morals.

[BaggyTrousers]

The driver thing is pretty relevant, consider how much easier it is to hit with modern drivers, especially the length it gives, than the things I used to use have to hit right out of the meat to get 250 yards & mishits, even slight ones, struggled to get anywhere.

I'd love to see Tiger hitting a Sam Snead driver & woods (proper woods) & a set of PGF Kel Nagle irons - my first matched set of irons after I stopped using a collection of donkey thumpers picked up from here & there.

I'd say there'd be a whole lot of cussin' and a swearing & club throwing ............... just like me back in the day. I left out the loogies.

Mind you I used to love my pings with the steel shafts. used to have to take the sole plate off occasionally, put in new screws, varnish the clubface & clean out the groves (wouldn't want to cheat) and clean the shafts with steel wool. Tell that to a youngster these days & he'll ask you why not just buy a new set.

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[Snipe Watson]

The modern shafts are a factor too. Torgue, weight and kick point specifications like a prescription.

[ruckover]

Hard to beat Ol' Tom Morris