Cameron, the new Blair

[Russ]

Well. We're at war

[BaggyTrousers]

I should have added that I don't believe politicians of any sort have the credibility and the greatest obscenity is when they try to assure us that they have "smart bombs" and effectively anyone killed will be "the enemy".

I can understand that ISIS will make their HQ in a hospital, in my mind that is no justification for bombing a hospital as the Yanks did very recently.

I await to see the face of Cameron when the first crew of a downed plane are burnt alive on camera.

I very much doubt if the ragtag militia of mindless barbarians have the ability to down a Tornado or much less a Typhoon, but the point you make of Daesh hiding themselves in the middle of the civilian population is key and the main reason why bombing is no answer. I have no doubt that Brimstone missiles are very accurate, but even the smartest of smart bombs kill indiscriminately.

Snipe, my point is the ludicrous bullshit that they used to show computer game graphics of a cruise missile heading up a street seeing the "right" target, turning in and practically knocked the door to ask "is Mr Badguy at home today?" before blowing everything within a large distance to shyte.

There was a deliberate campaign to get all of us mugs to believe that they can slaughter "just the bad guys" & if you believe that, away and have a chat to the tooth fairy who will probably confirm the efficacy of smart bombs.

You are probably right that no planes will be lost Snipe, I assume they will fly much higher than that Russian jet, then again they did manage to get a Jordanian figure plane to the ground, though admittedly I'm uncertain of how.

Watching Newsnight, Max Hitler Hastings seems to have a grasp on things, this will not keep us safer in any form, and now, just after the vote, we have the Foreign Secretary Philip Hammond saying this is a precursor to a ground assault. That at least is realistic but it's a lightning bolt of a change from Pigfu@ker saying "no boots on the ground", if not this week, certainly last week.

[BaggyTrousers]

I should have added, Snipe, your description of them as a rag tag militia, all I can say is that if that is the case, they are a the best rag tag militia in history for despite being bombed for 18 months, they still hold vast swathes of two countries.

I think you are wrong, they are well funded and well armed.

[Shan]

Well. We're at war

Indeed. Great to see the UK determination to destroy terrorists..........or as the FT more accurately put it.......

But Mr Cameron’s victory marks the culmination of attempts in recent weeks to reassert Britain on the world stage and clears the way for air strikes by British jets within days or even hours.

Wish I owned an arms manufacturing facility. Wonder if the pigf-cker or any of his friends / family have shares in one.....

[Russ]

Well. We're at war

Indeed. Great to see the UK determination to destroy terrorists..........or as the FT more accurately put it.......

But Mr Cameron’s victory marks the culmination of attempts in recent weeks to reassert Britain on the world stage and clears the way for air strikes by British jets within days or even hours.

Wish I owned an arms manufacturing facility. Wonder if the pigf-cker or any of his friends / family have shares in one.....

He no
Family and friends yes

[Cockatrice]

They need to follow the money.......

[Shan]

He no
Family and friends yes

Excellent. A really happy, peaceful and most importantly prosperous Christmas time so. Joy to the world.

[Snipe Watson]

I should have added that I don't believe politicians of any sort have the credibility and the greatest obscenity is when they try to assure us that they have "smart bombs" and effectively anyone killed will be "the enemy".

I can understand that ISIS will make their HQ in a hospital, in my mind that is no justification for bombing a hospital as the Yanks did very recently.

I await to see the face of Cameron when the first crew of a downed plane are burnt alive on camera.

I very much doubt if the ragtag militia of mindless barbarians have the ability to down a Tornado or much less a Typhoon, but the point you make of Daesh hiding themselves in the middle of the civilian population is key and the main reason why bombing is no answer. I have no doubt that Brimstone missiles are very accurate, but even the smartest of smart bombs kill indiscriminately.

Snipe, my point is the ludicrous bullshit that they used to show computer game graphics of a cruise missile heading up a street seeing the "right" target, turning in and practically knocked the door to ask "is Mr Badguy at home today?" before blowing everything within a large distance to shyte.

There was a deliberate campaign to get all of us mugs to believe that they can slaughter "just the bad guys" & if you believe that, away and have a chat to the tooth fairy who will probably confirm the efficacy of smart bombs.

You are probably right that no planes will be lost Snipe, I assume they will fly much higher than that Russian jet, then again they did manage to get a Jordanian figure plane to the ground, though admittedly I'm uncertain of how.

Watching Newsnight, Max Hitler Hastings seems to have a grasp on things, this will not keep us safer in any form, and now, just after the vote, we have the Foreign Secretary Philip Hammond saying this is a precursor to a ground assault. That at least is realistic but it's a lightning bolt of a change from Pigfu@ker saying "no boots on the ground", if not this week, certainly last week.

Do you mean the Russian passenger jet that was brought down by a bomb in Sinai or the bomber that was shot down by a Turkish F16?

I should have added, Snipe, your description of them as a rag tag militia, all I can say is that if that is the case, they are a the best rag tag militia in history for despite being bombed for 18 months, they still hold vast swathes of two countries.

I think you are wrong, they are well funded and well armed.

They are a well funded (mainly by the Saudis) ragtag insurgent militia. They are not a standing professional army who will stand and fight. That is why 18 months of bombing have had little impact on them. They just vanish into the general population and that's what will happen when we reach the 'boots on the ground' stage as we no doubt will.

They hold vast swathes of two dysfunctional countries riven by tribal divisions neither of which have the wherewithal to combat an insurgency on this scale. Daesh will only be defeated when their funding is cut off. I very much doubt if they can be defeated militarily. They will simply vanish, meld into the crowd and pop up somewhere else.

[Gary]

Has Cameron suggested when the bombing of Syria will stop?

Is there a point at which he can say that his aims have been achieved?

Is this just as much about getting rid of Assad as anything to do with IS?

Will any of the bombs be aimed at Assad's forces?

These are just a few of the fairly straightforward questions I would like to have heard Mr Cameron answer.

[Russ]

Has Cameron suggested when the bombing of Syria will stop?

Is there a point at which he can say that his aims have been achieved?

Is this just as much about getting rid of Assad as anything to do with IS?

Will any of the bombs be aimed at Assad's forces?

These are just a few of the fairly straightforward questions I would like to have heard Mr Cameron answer.

Defence secretary quoted as 4 years

[BaggyTrousers]

The aforementioned Max Hastings tells me that USA have flown more than 57000 missions in Syria .........anyone noticed the difference in the ground .............. no, I'm talking about the Syrian ground, not the USA were the Masters of War are growing ever richer.

Cue a song:

Masters of War (R Zimmerman) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2mabTnMHe8

I'm particularly fond of the last verse:

And I hope that you die
And your death'll come soon
I will follow your casket
In the pale afternoon
And I'll watch while you're lowered
Down to your deathbed
And I'll stand over your grave
'Til I'm sure that you're dead.

[big mervyn]

The aforementioned Max Hastings tells me that USA have flown more than 57000 missions in Syria .........

Eamonn Holmes this morning:

The RAF targeted an oilfield that had already been extensively bombed by America and France. Was there anything left to hit?

[Rooster]

The aforementioned Max Hastings tells me that USA have flown more than 57000 missions in Syria .........

Eamonn Holmes this morning:

The RAF targeted an oilfield that had already been extensively bombed by America and France. Was there anything left to hit?

The Americans probably missed and bombed a disused one at the other side of the country, the French headed in the general direction but then went on strike and are sitting at a roadside cafe having a glass of wine and a Gauloise so the oil field was still intact.

[Shan]

Almost exactly the point I made. I don't have any moral qualms about bombing Syria if it is necessary and required to beat IS. I think it probably is required BUT required as part of an overal military and political strategy. Like you, I think this is ineffective "we must be seen to be doing something" politics. If you are going to do something badly and be ineffective then don't do it is my opinion. Clearly, I arrive at that via a different route than you Baggy.

I reckon there would have been plenty of folk who would have had no moral qualms about the shooting of folk in Paris, would have seen it as necessary and effective. The only difference really is our perception of what is necessary, right or justified. We hold the moral high ground in our heads because we tell ourselves that blasting away terrorists is all good. Others think the same way but in their minds we are the terrorists. And on it goes.

[Shan]

The Yazidis would love to have had the opportunity to rationalise it like you have a chara. Don't recall them "starting it" with IS. Didn't stop them being slaughtered.

Yeah I know. The Iraqis didn't start anything with the UK and US but it didn't stop them being slaughtered either.

We morally accept things being done that we favour for our own interests, and we can justify those interests whether they be protection of self, relative safety and security or more selfish interests such as protection of our standard of living or projection of ideology. Therefore moral acceptance may be a redundant point. That's all I am saying.